In the first mishna, when the Tana says, if so, "Leolam ihé mazcir !", and the answer is "Ein choalim es hagechamim ela samouh lagueshamim"
The objection is about "leazcir" and the answer is about "lishol".
later, the guemara explains that "leazcir" and "lishol" are two separate things. But if so, this formuation of the Mishna is a bit strange !
Can you give me some light on this subject?
Emmanuel Garcia, Paris,France
(1) If we look at this Mishna in the Mishnayot editions, we see that the first Mishnah ends with "Leolam yehai mazcir" and Mishnah 2 starts with "Ein choalim es hagechamim ela samouh lagueshamim". (This contrasts with the way the Gemara editions cite the Mishnah; where the Mishnah only finishes later on, with "Eino mazcir".)
(2) One sees therefore that "Ein choalim es hagechamim ..." is not in fact an answer to the question "Im kein Leolam yehai mazcir". So the pshat is that Rabbi Eliezer said that he did not say that one should ask - "lishol" - for rain on all 7 days of Sukkot, but rather only to mention - "leazcir" - the praise of Hash-m who sends us rain. Rabbi Yehoshua replied to this that if the discussion is only when to mention - "leazcir" - then one could mention the praise of Hash-m for sending rain, all year round.
(3) This is the end of the discussion between R. Eliezer and R. Yehoshua concerning when one starts "lishol" or "leazcir". (One sees that this is the end of the discussion from the fact that in the Mishnayot editions this ends the first Mishnah).
R. Eliezer's answer to R. Yehoshua's question is given by Tosfot 2a DH Im who cites a Beraita mentioned in the Guemara that indeed all summer long if a person wishes "leazcir" rain he may do so. However all through the summer there is no obligation "leazcir" - it is merely optional. In contrast, on the first day of Yomtov it is obligotary to mention rain, because soon one will be asking Hash-m to send rain, and therefore one must appease Hash-m before later on asking him for favours, from the last day of Yomtov onwards.
(4) Now the Mishnah continues with a new Halacha: "Ein choalim es hagechamim...". The Bartenura gives 2 explanations:
(a) This Mishnah goes according to R. Yehoshua and when it says "choalim" it really means "mazcirin" and teaches that one only mentions gechamim i.e. "Machiv Haruach..." on the 8th day of the Chag, since this is "samuch legechamim" because only from the 8th day onwards do we want rain.
(b) The Mishnah does mean "mazcirin" not "choalim" and goes according to both R. Yehoshua and R. Eliezer because they both agree concerning "chaila" i.e. to ask for rain in "v'Tein Tal u'Matar", that one starts this only near the rain season, namely on 3 Marcheshvan or 7 Marcheshvan as explained in the Mishnah (below 10a).