1)

(a)According to the Tana Kama in our Mishnah, someone who is Noder from milk, is permitted to eats the whey, and vice versa (because they are considered two different commodities). What does Rebbi Yosi say?

(b)Aba Shaul says that someone who is Noder from cheese is forbidden to eat both salted and unsalted cheese. Why might we have thought otherwise?

(c)The Tana Kama permits someone who is Noder from meat, to eat both the gravy and the Kifah. What is 'Kifah'?

(d)What does Rebbi Yehudah say?

1)

(a)According to the Tana Kama in our Mishnah, someone who is Noder from milk, is permitted to eat the whey, and vice-versa (because they are considered two different commodities) - Rebbi Yosi forbids the former.

(b)Aba Shaul says that someone who is Noder from cheese is forbidden to eat both salted and unsalted cheese. We might otherwise have confined the Neder to salted cheese, because that is how cheese is usually made.

(c)The Tana Kama permits someone who is Noder from meat, to eat both the gravy and the Kifah - (the tiny pieces of meat that one finds at the bottom of the pot).

(d)Rebbi Yehudah forbids both the gravy and the Kifah.

2)

(a)What is Rebbi Yehudah trying to prove when he cites Rebbi Tarfon, who even forbade eggs that were cooked together with meat that was forbidden through a Neder?

(b)How do the Rabanan refute Rebbi Yehudah's proof? How do they qualify the case?

(c)What is the criterion for Rebbi Tarfon's ruling, according to them?

(d)What is the difference whether one is 'Noder min ha'Yayin' or whether one says 'Konam Yayin Zeh she'Eini To'em'? Who is the author of this statement?

2)

(a)When Rebbi Yehudah cites Rebbi Tarfon, who even forbade eggs that were cooked together with meat that was forbidden through a Neder - he is bringing a proof for Rebbi Yosi, who forbids the whey together with the milk (see also Tosfos).

(b)The Rabanan refute Rebbi Yehudah's proof - by establishing Rebbi Tarfon when the Noder said 'Basar Zeh', specifically including whatever comes from it (or whatever it is mixed with).

(c)The criterion for Rebbi Tarfon's ruling, according to them is - whether there is sufficient of the forbidden food to give taste to the secondary one (which is generally anything less than sixty to one).

(d)The difference whether one is 'Noder min ha'Yayin' or whether one says 'Konam Yayin Zeh she'Eini To'em' is - that in the former case, one is only forbidden to drink the wine itself; whereas in the latter, whatever comes from the wine or whatever it is mixed with and absorbs some of its taste is included in the Neder (like the Rabanan of Rebbi Yehudah).

3)

(a)What problem do we have with the concession of benefiting from forbidden wine because it is less than a sixtieth?

(b)What answer do some give, based on the category of mixture which is under discussion?

(c)What is the source of this distinction?

3)

(a)The problem that we have with the concession of benefiting from forbidden wine because it is less than a sixtieth - is the principle 'Davar she'Yesh Lo Matirin, Afilu b'Elef La Batel' (and Neder is a 'Davar she'Yesh Lo Matirin', since it is a Mitzvah to have it annulled).

(b)Some restrict the Isur of 'Davar she'Yesh Lo Matirin' to when the two objects are of the same kind (Min b'Mino), but not to Min b'she'Eino Mino (such as meat and eggs, milk and whey).

(c)The source of this distinction - is the Yerushalmi in this very Perek.

4)

(a)The distinction between 'Min b'Mino' and 'Min b'she'Eino Mino' leaves us with a Kashya on the Rif, however. How does the Rif (in Perek Gid ha'Nasheh) explain the Gemara, which forbids bread that was baked together with roasted meat to be eaten with Kutach (in spite of the principle 'Reicha Lav Milsa Hi')?

(b)What does the Sugya in Beitzah say (in connection with Eruv) with regard to a dough whose owner borrowed water and salt?

(c)Considering that the reason given there is because it is a 'Davar she'Yesh Lo Matirin', why is there no proof for the Rif's ruling from there (seeing as flour on the one hand, and water and salt on the other, are Min b'she'Eino Mino')?

4)

(a)The distinction between 'Min b'Mino' and 'Min b'she'Eino Mino' leaves us with a Kashya on the Rif, however. According to the Rif, the Gemara forbids bread that was baked together with roasted meat to be eaten with Kutach (in spite of the principle 'Reicha Lav Milsa Hi') - because (seeing as it can be eaten with meat) it falls under the category of 'Davar she'Yesh Lo Matirin'.

(b)The Sugya in Beitzah says - that a dough whose owner borrowed water and salt can only be taken to areas that lie within the Techum of both owners.

(c)Despite the fact that the reason given there is because it is a 'Davar she'Yesh Lo Matirin', there no proof from there for the Rif's ruling (seeing as flour on the one hand, and water and salt on the other, are Min b'she'Eino Mino') - because the fact that one cannot make dough without water and salt, renders them 'Min b'Mino'.

5)

(a)Many commentaries disagree with the Rif (see Tosfos and the Rosh here) on the basis of our Sugya. It is possible however, to reconcile the two. According to the Rif, which is the predominant factor in determining the difference between 'Min b'Mino' and 'Min b'she'Eino Mino', the difference in taste or the difference in Halachah?

(b)Which of the two are required in order to become Batel?

(c)In that case, why will 'Min b'she'Eino Mino' override 'Davar she'Yesh Lo Matirin' in the case of Nedarim, but not in the case of ...

1. ... bread that was baked together with roasted meat in the oven?

2. ... dough containing borrowed water and salt?

(d)Why might there be even more reason to be stringent in the first of the two cases than in the second?

5)

(a)Many commentaries disagree with the Rif (see Tosfos and the Rosh here) on the basis of our Sugya. It is possible however, to reconcile the Rif with our Sugya. According to the Rif - the predominant factor in determining the difference between 'Min b'Mino' and 'Min b'she'Eino Mino', is the difference in Halachah (and not the difference in taste).

(b)Both of them however - are required in order to become Batel.

(c)'Min b'she'Eino Mino' overrides 'Davar she'Yesh Lo Matirin' in the case of Nedarim, but not in the case of ...

1. ... bread that was baked together with roasted meat in the oven - because, unlike by Nedarim (which are completely forbidden now, and permitted later), bread that was baked ... can be eaten now too (with meat or Parev dishes).

2. ... dough containing borrowed water and salt - because, like bread that was baked together with roasted meat in the oven, it can be eaten already now (within the Techum).

(d)In fact, there might be even more reason to be stringent in the first of the two cases than in the second - because, whereas in the latter case, we would be stringent in the equivalent case by 'Min b'Mino' (creating the possibility of being lenient by 'Min b'she'Eino Mino'); in the former case, which does not have an equivalent by 'Min b'Mino', we will not be lenient by 'Min b'she'Eino Mino' either.

6)

(a)Why did they consider to be a joke, Rav Ashi's ruling in Yevamos that a piece of Chatas that became mixed in a hundred pieces of Chulin is forbidden, because it is a 'Davar she'Yesh Lo Matirin'?

(b)How do we reconcile this with the Rif's ruling (in the case of bread that was baked together with roasted meat in the oven)?

6)

(a)They considered a joke, Rav Ashi's ruling in Yevamos that a piece of Chatas that became mixed in a hundred pieces of Chulin is forbidden, because it is a 'Davar she'Yesh Lo Matirin') - because for Kohanim it is always permitted, whereas for Yisre'elim it is always forbidden (so how can he refer to it as a 'Davar she'Yesh Lo Matirin'?).

(b)We reconcile this with the Rif's ruling (in the case of bread that was baked together with roasted meat in the oven) - because in the case in Yevamos, there is no point in being stringent with regard to the Yisrael (not to allow the piece of Chatas to become Batel), because of the fact that it is permitted to Kohanim; whereas in the Rif's case - we will be stringent now regarding everybody, because the bread can be eaten now (by the same people) with meat.

52b----------------------------------------52b

7)

(a)According to the Tana Kama in the Beraisa, someone who is Noder from lentils, is forbidden to eat 'Ashishim' (poor quality lentils that can only be eaten when they are fried in honey). What does Rebbi Yosi say?

(b)Why is there no contradiction between the Tana Kama's ruling here and the ruling in our Mishnah permitting the whey?

(c)What is then the problem with Rebbi Yosi permitting Ashishim?

(d)How do we reconcile the two statements of Rebbi Yosi?

7)

(a)According to the Tana Kama in the Beraisa, someone who is Noder from lentils, is forbidden to eat 'Ashishin' (poor quality lentils that can only be eaten when they are fried in honey) - Rebbi Yosi permits it.

(b)There is no contradiction between the Tana Kama's ruling here and the ruling in our Mishnah permitting the whey - because whey and milk are completely different commodities, whereas lentils and Ashishin are not.

(c)The problem with Rebbi Yosi is - that if he does not consider Ashishin to be lentils - then how much more so should he not consider whey to be milk (so why did he rule stringently in the Mishnah?).

(d)We reconcile the two statements of Rebbi Yosi - by repeating what we said earlier, that in Rebbi Yosi's town, they referred to whey as 'Kuma d'Chelba', whereas they did not refer to Ashishin as lentils (since they have been changed from their original form by having honey added to them).

8)

(a)According to the Beraisa, does a Neder forbidding ...

1. ... milk incorporate whey, and vice-versa?

2. ... gravy incorporate Kifa, and vice-versa?

3. ... grapes incorporate wine?

4. ... olives incorporate oil?

(b)The Tana concludes 'Konam Zeisim va'Anavim Eilu she'Eini To'em, Asur Bahen u'Vayotzei Bahen'. What are the two possible reasons for this?

(c)We ask that if 'Eilu' is Dafka, then why would the Tana need to mention 'she'Eini To'em'? Why do we ask specifically this way, and not vice-versa?

(d)How do we answer the Kashya?

8)

(a)According to the Beraisa, a Neder forbidding ...

1. ... milk - does not incorporate whey, nor vice-versa.

2. ... gravy - does not incorporate Kifa, nor vice-versa.

3. ... grapes - does not incorporate wine.

4. ... olives - does not incorporate oil.

(b)The Tana concludes 'Konam Zeisim va'Anavim Eilu she'Eini To'em, Asur Bahen u'Vayotzei Bahen'. The two possible reasons for this are - either because he added the word 'Eilu', or because he added 'she'Eini To'em'.

(c)We ask that if 'Eilu' is Dafka, then why would the Tana need to mention 'she'Eini To'em'? We could just as well have asked the other way round - but chose to ask this way because 'Eilu' appears first in the Mishnah.

(d)We answer - that the Tana mentions 'she'Eini To'em' to teach us that even though he added that, it will not incorporate other foods, unless he said 'Eilu'.

9)

(a)In view of the Mishnah later, which forbids Chilufin and Gidulin when the Noder says 'Eilu', but not when he says 'she'Eini To'em', how can Rami bar Chama suggest that 'she'Eini To'em' might be stronger than 'Eilu'?

(b)In another Beraisa, the Tana says 'Konam Peiros ha'Eilu Alai ... Asur b'Chilufeihen uv'Giduleihen'. What might we extrapolate from this?

(c)Why is there in fact, no proof from there that 'Eilu' does not include what comes from the fruit?

(d)We could have resolved our She'eilah from the Beraisa, which says 've'Im Amar Basar Zeh Alai, Asur Bo uv'Rotvo uv'Kifo'. Why did we not do so?

9)

(a)In spite of the Mishnah later, which forbids Chilufin and Gidulin when the Noder says 'Eilu', but not when he says 'she'Eini To'em', Rami bar Chama suggests that 'she'Eini To'em' might be stronger than 'Eilu' - because that Mishnah speaks specifically about Chilufin and Gidulin, which are included only because 'Eilu' is considered as if he had declared the fruit Hekdesh, where Chilufin and Gidulin are forbidden too; whereas 'she'Eini To'em' (which does not have such connotations), if anything it precludes Chilufin and Gidulin, seeing as that is not what he forbade.

(b)In another Beraisa, the Tana says 'Konam Peiros ha'Eilu Alai ... Asur b'Chilufeihen uv'Giduleihen' - from which we might extrapolate that whatever comes from the fruit is permitted (otherwise the Tana should rather have said 'Asur b'Yotzei Meihen', which is a bigger Chidush, because it is not the same object as the one that he forbade.

(c)In fact, there is no proof from there that 'Eilu' does not include what comes from the fruit - because we can say the opposite: that Chilufin and Gidulin constitute a bigger Chidush, seeing as they did not come from the original object (and that in fact, whatever comes from the forbidden object is certainly forbidden).

(d)We could have resolved our She'eilah from the Beraisa, which says 've'Im Amar Basar Zeh Alai, Asur Bo uv'Rotvo uv'Kifo'. We did not do so - because we are looking to resolve it from a Mishnah.

10)

(a)Why can we not then resolve the She'eilah from the Seifa 'she'Eini Ochel, v'she'Eini To'em Mutar b'Chilufeihen v'Giduleihen', implying 'Ha ha'Yotzei Meihen, Asur'?

(b)Which part of the She'eilah do we finally conclude from Rebbi Yehudah (quoting Rebbi Tarfon) in our Mishnah?

(c)We try to resolve the second half of the She'eilah from the Mishnah that we learned earlier 'Dag Dagim she'Eini To'em, Asur Bahen ... u'Mutar bi'Tris Terufah u'be'Tzir'. How does Rava refute the proof from there?

(d)What is the Halachah with regard to ...

1. ... 'Eilu'?

2. ... 'she'Eini To'em'?

10)

(a)We cannot resolve the She'eilah from the Seifa 'she'Eini Ochel, v'she'Eini To'em Mutar b'Chilufeihen v'Giduleihen', implying 'Ha ba'Yotzei Meihen, Asur' - because we can say that really, 'ba'Yotzei Meihen, Mutar. However, since the Tana did not mention in the Reisha that 'ba'Yotzei Meihen, Asur' (like Chilufin v'Gidulin), he did not mention it in the Seifa either.

(b)We finally conclude from Rebbi Yehudah (quoting Rebbi Tarfon) in our Mishnah (who forbade eggs that were cooked with the forbidden meat when the Noder said 'KonamBasar Zeh' (which is like 'Eilu') Alai' - that 'Eilu' is Dafka, and that it includes whatever comes out of the fruit or receives its taste from it.

(c)We try to resolve the second half of the She'eilah from the Mishnah that we learned earlier 'Dag Dagim she'Eini To'em Asur Bahen ... u'Mutar bi'Tris Terufah u'be'Tzir'. Rava refutes the proof from there however - by establishing the Mishnah when the juice had already been extracted and the fish chopped, before he made the Neder (but if it was done only afterwards, it would indeed be forbidden).

(d)The Halachah is that ...

1. ... 'Eilu' - is definitely Dafka.

2. ... 'she'Eini To'em' - is a Safek, and Sfeika d'Oraisa l'Chumra.

11)

(a)Some ascribe the reason for the prohibition of what comes out of the fruit to the fact that the Lashon 'Eilu', 'she'Eini Ochel' or 'she'Eini To'em' is superfluous. Why does the case of 'she'Eini Ochel' present a problem?

(b)How do we resolve this problem?

(c)In that case, why by Shevu'ah, will 'she'Eini Ochel' definitely not include anything (e.g. that comes from the fruit)?

(d)Then why does the Rambam say otherwise?

11)

(a)Some ascribe the reason for the prohibition of what comes out of the fruit to the fact that the Lashon 'Eilu', 'she'Eini Ochel' or 'she'Eini To'em' is superfluous. The case of 'she'Eini Ochel' presents a problem - because what alternative did he have? 'Konam Alai' would have implied an Isur Hana'ah, and not just the Isur Achilah that he wanted to create.

(b)We resolve this problem - by pointing out that he could have said 'Konam Peiros ha'Eilu ba'Achilah', rather than 'Konam Peiros she'Eini Ochel'.

(c)In that case, by Shevu'ah, 'she'Eini Ochel' will definitely not include anything (e.g. that comes from the fruit) - because 'ba'Achilah Alai' is not an alternative, seeing as it is a Lashon of Neder and not of Shevu'ah, in which case 'she'Eini Ochel' is not superfluous.

(d)The Rambam says otherwise - because, in his opinion, the Leshonos under discussion do not include because they superfluous, but because the Lashon itself is inclusive. In that case, there is no difference between Neder and Shevu'ah.

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