More Discussions for this daf
1. What is special about the order of the Alef Beis? 2. Note on Daf insights 3. Keri'as Shema at night and day (Tosfos DH Lo)
4. Rashi's comment about nails 5. l'Es Metzo Zo Beis ha'Kisei 6. Shul and Long Life
7. One who does not subject himself to his Rebbi's rebuke 8. When to Read v'Zos ha'Berachah 9. Rebbi Yehoshua
10. Arba Amos Shel Halachah 11. Shenayim Mikra v'Echad Targum 12. Matza or Motzei
13. 2 Mikrah and 1 Targum - source 14. Alos Hashachar 15. Ohev Hash-m Sha'arei Tziyon mi'Kol Mishkenos Yakov
16. The source for Davening together with a Minyan
DAF DISCUSSIONS - BERACHOS 8

Mordechai Perlman asked:

(QUESTIONS 1 AND 2 WERE ANSWERED IN AN EARLIER MAILING)

3) The G'moro (3b) quotes Rebbi Y'hoshua as a support for Rebbi Noson.
The statement which is quoted concerns the end-time for K'rias Sh'ma.
Rebbi Y'hoshua says that the period for K'rias Sh'ma ends at 3 hours.
Rashi (d"h V'Rebbi Noson) says that this means the beginning of the 3rd
hour. Does this mean that the end-time for reciting Sh'ma is at the
beginning of the 3rd hour and not at the end of the 3rd hour as we are
accustomed to think?

4) Tosfos on 4a says that Evyosor was the only Kohen left after the
massacre at Nov. The G'moro in Sanhedrin (95a) says that if not for the
fact that Evyosor had survived, even Yoash would not have survived
Asalyo's massacre as a result of the fact that Dovid was indirectly
involved in the massacre in Nov. If so, in what massacre was Aharon
indirectly involved, that his children were massacred to a man, at Nov?
Also, if Evyosor was the only survivor among the Kohanim, then from
whom did the B'nei Tzadok descend?

5) The G'moro (4b) says that just as "Hash-m S'fosai Tiftoch" is like a
"T'filo Arichto" so too "Haskiveinu" is like a "Geulo Arichto". What does
"Hashkiveinu" have to do with "Geulo"? Why did the G'moro not also
call it "T'filo Arichto"? And the same question goes for Tosfos on the
page where he calls "Yiru Eineinu" a "Geulo Arichto".

6) On 4b the G'moro considers reading a Mizmor which has the p'sukim
in order of the Alef Beis a specialty. What is so special about such a
Mizmor? Also, why could Dovid HaMelech not make a posuk with a Nun
even if it would have had to be one of N'filo? If there already was a
posuk in Amos about the N'filo of Yisroel, why could he not make one
about N'filo? And also, why would he have had to make a posuk about
N'filo, there aren't any good words with a Nun; there was the posuk of
"Nosein Lechem L'chol Bosor"; that has a Nun, why not one like that in
Ashrei?

7) Rashi 5a (d"h V'domu Selo) says that we know these words apply to
the day of death which is eternal silence. Why is death called eternal,
what happened to the belief in T'chiyas HaMeisim?

8) From the second Tosfos on 5a comes an interesting chiddush, that
Rebbi Yochanan only comforted with the bone of his tenth child, a
parent that lost all his/their sons but not if one lost some but not all. Is
this a correct deduction? Also, how can the G'moro say that losing all
one's sons is "Yisurin shel Ahavo", does the G'moro (Y'vamos 55a) not
say that one can lose all his sons (or children) through a sin of Arayos?

9) The G'moro (6b) brings a proof that one should be careful to pray
T'filas Mincho from the fact that Eliyohu was answered only at Mincho.
However, what kind of proof is this, Eliyohu's turn came at Mincho.
Maybe if he was given a chance at praying at Shacharis, he would have
been answered then too?

10) The first Tosfos on 7a says that Bilom could have said the word
"Kaleim" during the time of a Rega. However, using the calculation of
the G'moro, a Rega is 1/58888 of an hour which is 61 thousandths of a
second. How could Bilom say "Kaleim" so fast?

11) The second Tosfos on 7a implies that killing with one's hands is
better than cursing someone to death. Why?

12) On 8b the G'moro interrupts the discussion of "Sh'nayim Mikro
V'Echod Targum" with the discussion of what day Yom Kippur is on and
how to fulfill the Torah's instructions regarding the 9th day of Tishri.
What is the purpose of the interruption?

13) The G'moro (8b) implies that there is something wrong with marrying
a Giyores and equates it with sitting on the bed of a gentile woman.
What is wrong with marrying a Giyores?

Mordechai Perlman

The Kollel replies:

3) (a) The kings wake up throughout the third hour. David ha'Melech arose two Mishmaros before the earliest-rising kings (who get up at the beginning of the third hour). Keri'as Shema, of course, may be said until the end of the third hour. (P'NEI YEHOSHUA)

(b) Jewish kings wake up at the beginning of the third hour (earlier than the non-Jewish kings) in order to prepare to Daven (which they did at the end of the third hour). David ha'Melech arose two Mishmaros before the Jewish kings. (SHA'AGAS ARYEH)

(c) Non-Jewish kings prepare to get up at the beginning of the third hour; it takes time (until the end of the third hour) for them to get ready to come out into the royal chamber. David ha'Melech arose two Mishmaros before them. (LECHEM SETARIM)

(This may be Rashi's intention. The words "b'Techilas Sha'ah Shelishis" belong at the beginning of DH v'Tarti d'Yemama and not here. M. Kornfeld)

4) It is clear from the verses that Evyasar was the only Kohen descended from Eli the Kohen who was still alive; there were many Kohanim from other families alive. This is Tosfos' intention here.

5) When the Jewish people left Egypt, they needed a special covering of Shalom around them as protection. This is the subject of the blessing "Hashkivenu." This is also the purpose of the blessing "Yir'u Einenu," as Tosfos states.

6) A Mizmor with verses in the order of the Alef-Beis is special because it reflects Hash-m's involvement in the natural order of this world (which is represented by the all-encompassing 22 letters of the alphabet) (MESHECH CHACHMAH, Parshas Bechukosai).

David lived before Amos. The nature of David's writings differed from those of Amos, and therefore just because Amos wrote a verse about the Jewish people's downfall does not mean that David also should have.

Since the Mizmor written in the order of the Alef-Beis represents Hash-m's involvement in the natural order of the world, the only appropriate verse to begin with a "Nun" would be one that discussed the downfall ("Nefilah") of the Jewish people, because the natural order of the world dictates that when the Jews fail to recognize the hand of Hash-m in everything, they will fall. "Nosein Lechem l'Chol Basar" is an expression of Hash-m's involvement above the natural order, as is evidenced by its inclusion in the Mismor of Halel ha'Gadol, which depicts Hash-m's miraculous interventions in the natural order.

7) "L'Olam" here means in this world , as Rashi points out later on Daf 54a, DH Hiskinu.

8) Tosfos actually intends to explain that when someone never had any children, this is not considered Yesurin Shel Ahavah. When someone had children but they died, this could be Yesurin Shel Ahavah, but is not necessarily so.

9) Eliyahu specifically told the false prophets to offer their sacrifices first (Melachim I:18:25), knowing that they would not finish until the afternoon (Melachim I:18:26), at which time Eliyahu would take the opportunity to offer his sacrifice (Melachim I:18:30).

10) Tosfos is going according to the opinion in the Gemara that a Rega is the amount of time that it takes to say the word "Rega."

11) As Tosfos writes, it is worse to kill someone by cursing with Hash-m's name than with one's hands, because when one invokes the name of Hash-m, he shows that he has the audacity to bother the Divine power to alter something in this world beyond the natural order, just because of him.

12) The Gemara's intention is not to explain when Yom Kippur is. Rather, the Gemara is questioning the suggestion that one spend all day on the ninth of Tishrei reading the entire Chumash; he will not have any time on the ninth of Tishrei, because he has an obligation to be eating and drinking throughout that day.

13) The Gemara is not actually equating marrying a Giyores to sitting on the bed of a gentile woman. Rather, the Gemara is using the phrase of "sitting on the bed of an Aramis" as a metaphor for marrying a Giyores (because the "bed" symbolizes marriage). The Gemara does not say it is forbidden to marry a Giyores, but merely that one should not marry her. The reasons for this are :

(a) her gentile father will be the grandfather of the Jew's children.

(b) There is always the possibility that she did not convert with sincere intentions, and one must be concered for this possibility.

(c) Perhaps we could suggest answer based on the words of Tosfos in Yevamos 47b (DH Kashim Gerim l'Yisrael), who points out that converts are often uninformed about the particular requirements of the Mitzvos, and born-Jews might learn from them and become lax themselves. For this reason, it may be best not to marry a Giyores, lest she not be knowledgeable in the particulars of Mitzvos and the husband might learn from her deeds.

(d) Alternatively, we could suggest, based on the words of Tosfos in Kidushin 70b (DH Kashim Gerim), that the Torah commands us in 36 places (or even in 46 places, see Bava Metzia 59b) not to afflict a convert, and it is not possible that in the close relationship of husband and wife, the husband manages to avoid ever aggrieving his wife.

(e) In contrast to answer (c) above, Tosfos in Kidushin (ad loc.) cites Rabeinu Avraham ha'Ger who explains that converts are often more careful and zealous in the performance of Mitzvos than born-Jews. Therefore, if one marries a Giyores, her fervor in fulfilling the Mitzvos (compared with his relative lack of fervor) will cause Divine judgement to be aroused against him (and it may also cause problems in their Shalom Bayis).

Be well, M. Kornfeld and Y. Shaw