MENACHOS 74 (18 Iyar, Lag b'Omer) - Dedicated by Avi and Lily Berger of Queens, N.Y., in memory of Lily's father, Mr. Benny Krieger (Chananel Benayahu ben Harav Yisrael Avraham Aba), Zt"l, who passed away eight years ago on Lag ba'Omer 5763. Mr. Krieger exemplified Ahavas Chesed, Ahavas Torah and Ahavas Eretz Yisrael.



MAY ONE INTEND TO EXTINGUISH ON SHABBOS? [Davar she'Eino Miskaven: extinguishing]




(Mishnah): Minchas Kohanim, Chavitei Kohen Gadol and Minchas Nesachim are totally burned on the Mizbe'ach. Regarding these, the Mizbe'ach has greater Ko'ach (privileges) than Kohanim.


Question: Nesachim (of wine) go entirely on the Mizbe'ach!


Answer: They are poured through the Shitin (conduits in the Mizbe'ach. The Mizbe'ach does not consume the wine.)


The Mishnah says 'regarding these, the Mizbe'ach has greater Ko'ach.' This teaches unlike Shmuel, who taught that Nedavos of wine are (totally) sprinkled on the fire on the Mizbe'ach. Rather, all wine is poured through the Shitin.


Zevachim 91b - Question: According to Shmuel, the wine will (partially) extinguish the fire (where it lands). This is forbidden ("Esh Tamid Tukad Al ha'Mizbe'ach Lo Sichbeh")!


Answer: One may extinguish for a Mitzvah (e.g. a Nedavah of wine).


Question (Beraisa): Nesachim of wine are poured into the Sefalim.


Question: We cannot say that they are thrown onto the fire, for it says "Lo Sichbeh"!


Answer: Shmuel holds like R. Shimon, who permits Davar she'Eino Miskaven (something that might cause an Isur to be done).


Shabbos 120a (Mishnah - R. Shimon ben Nanas): One may spread a (moist) kid's skin over a box that caught fire, because it gets charred (but it does not burn. It will save the rest of the box);


One may use any Kli to block the fire from spreading, whether it is full (of water) or empty;


R. Yosi forbids new Klei Cheres (earthenware) full of water, for they will break and extinguish the fire.


(Rav Yehudah): If one end of a Talis caught fire, one may put water on the other side. If it extinguishes, this is no problem.


Question (Beraisa): If a Talis caught fire, one may spread it out and put it on. If it extinguishes, this is no problem. Similarly, if a Sefer Torah caught fire, one may open it and read in it. If it extinguishes, this is no problem.


Answer: Rav Yehudah holds like Ben Nanas.


Question: Ben Nanas permits spreading a skin because it only chars. Does he permit Geram Kivuy (causing extinguishing)?!


Answer: Yes! R. Yosi forbids new Klei Cheres full of water, for they will break and extinguish the fire. This implies that the first Tana permits!


(Beraisa): If a lamp is in back of a door, one may open and close it normally - if the lamp extinguishes, this is no problem.


Rav cursed those who ruled like this Beraisa.


Question (Ravina): Why did Rav curse them? If Rav holds like R. Yehudah (who forbids Davar she'Eino Miskaven), and the Beraisa is like R. Shimon, this is no reason to curse them!


Answer (Rav Acha brei d'Rava): Even R. Shimon forbids this. Abaye and Rava taught that even R. Shimon forbids a Pesik Reishei (an inevitable consequence).


(Rav Yehudah): One may open and close a door in front of a bonfire on Shabbos (even though a gust could fan the fire).


Abaye cursed those who ruled like this.


Question: If a normal wind is blowing, why does Abaye forbid? If an unusually strong wind is blowing, why does Rav Yehudah permit?!


Answer: A normal wind is blowing. Abaye decrees lest one open even when a very strong wind blows. Rav Yehudah does not decree.




Rif and Rosh (Shabbos 45a and 16:7): The Halachah does not follow R. Yosi, who forbids Geram Kivuy. Rav Yehudah taught that if a Talis (or Sefer Torah) caught fire, one may spread it out and put it on (or open it and read in it). If it extinguishes, this is no problem.


Rambam (Hilchos Shabbos 12:6): If a Talis (or Sefer Torah) caught fire, one may spread it out and put it on (or open it and read in it). If it extinguishes, this is no problem. One may put water on the side that is not yet burning. If it extinguishes, this is no problem.




Shulchan Aruch (OC 334:23): If a Talis caught fire, one may spread it out and put it on, and we are not concerned if the fire extinguishes. Some say that one may not intend that it extinguish.


Beis Yosef (DH v'Talis): The Beraisa permits to take off the Talis and put it on again, or to open the Sefer Torah and read in it, but no more. This is unlike Rav Yehudah, who permits putting water on the other side. If it extinguishes, this is no problem. It seems that the Tur permits only when he does not intend to extinguish through this. We permit only if he needs to wear the Talis or read in the Sefer Torah. He does so even though this extinguishes, for it is Davar she'Eino Miskaven. If he intends to extinguish, surely it is forbidden. We permit putting liquids on the Talis, even though he intends to extinguish. That is only Geram Kivuy, for he does not do an action to the fire itself. Rather, when the fire reaches the water, it cannot burn there, and automatically it extinguishes. Here, when he takes off the Talis or opens the Sefer Torah, he shakes the fire itself, and this extinguishes it. Therefore, the Tur forbids if he intends. However, it seems that the other Poskim (Rif, Rambam and Rosh) disagree. Even if he does not need the Talis or Sefer, rather, he intends to extinguish through moving it through putting it or holding the Sefer, it is permitted, for it is only Geram Kivuy. They wrote these Halachos Stam. The words connote that he wears the Talis or reads in the Sefer so it will not look like he intends to extinguish, but surely he intends for this. The Yerushalmi and Tosefta connote like this. It seems that this is because it is not a Pesik Reishei, for it is not certain to extinguish. Also, it is extinguishing in an unskilled way. Therefore, Chachamim did not decree if this would cause a loss.


Rebuttal (Bach 10 DH u'Mah): How can the Tur say that he may not intend? The Beraisa teaches that he spreads it out and puts it on in order to save the Talis, lest it burn! Surely he intends to extinguish! Rather, 'if it extinguished, it extinguished' is superfluous. It teaches that one may not do an act while covering to extinguish it, e.g. to shake himself back and forth or run and jump. Rather, it is permitted only if it extinguished by itself, but he may not intend to do an act to extinguish. The Beis Yosef understood that the Tur permits only if he needs the Talis. This is wrong. There is no argument. All permit intent to extinguish, but forbid an act to cause extinguishing.


Taz (17): The Beis Yosef understands that even though the Tur does not permit to intend to extinguish through putting on the Talis or reading in the Sefer, one may put liquid (on the other side), for this is only Geram Kivuy. This is astounding. Why does the Tur forbid intent to extinguish? Chachamim taught how to extinguish! Also, if there is a severity to a Talis (i.e. intent to extinguish through wearing it) more than putting water, what was the question against Rav Yehudah? The Beis Yosef explains that putting water is more lenient. The Tana permits even putting it on with intent to extinguish! Also, how can the Beis Yosef say that putting on the Talis shakes the fire itself, and this extinguishes it? This is an act of extinguishing. Surely this is forbidden. One may not even open a door near a lamp, lest wind extinguish it! All the more so one may not overtly shake in order to extinguish, regardless of his intent!


Note: The Beis Yosef said that Chachamim were not stringent when this would cause a loss. Perhaps they were stringent about opening a door, for this causes no loss! In the text of the Rif and Rosh, Rav Yehudah permitted spreading it out and putting it on. Presumably, in their text the Beraisa permits putting water; the Beis Yosef explains the question against Rav Yehudah!


Taz: I say that surely one may not shake the Ner in order to extinguish it. This is proper extinguishing. Here, he does not extinguish; he merely prevents the fire from spreading. Through the connection of the Talis, the fire will increase. He scatters the connection, to prevent the increase. The Gemara mentioned spreading out the Talis and putting it on, but it did not mention extinguishing. It also mentioned opening a Sefer Torah and reading in it. Surely reading will not extinguish! Rather, this is normal, to spread it out (the Talis) and leave it, i.e. cover himself with it. The same applies to a Sefer. This is just like putting water on the side that did not catch fire. However, water is worse, for it truly extinguishes. Therefore, we challenged Rav Yehudah. Since he intended only to prevent spreading, he is not concerned if it extinguishes what was already aflame. There is no argument between the Tur and the other Poskim. All forbid shaking a burning Talis in order to extinguish.


Magen Avraham (25): One may not intend, i.e. he may not run and jump and shake back and forth in order that it will extinguish. Rather, he puts it on normally. Likewise, one opens and reads a Sefer Torah.


Eshel Avraham: The Shulchan Aruch did not mention a Sefer Torah. Do not say that this is because extinguishing is Melachah she'Einah Tzerichah l'Gufah (it is not done for the same purpose as in the Mishkan, or there is no positive result from it), which one opinion (in Sa'if 27) forbids only mid'Rabanan, and mid'Rabanan laws do not apply (if the result will be disgrace) to Kisvei ha'Kodesh. This is wrong. We permit only telling Nochrim to do Melachah. We do not permit all mid'Rabanan laws.


Bach (11): The Tur explains that Rav Yehudah does not permit putting water on the Talis, for this is laundering. Rather, he puts on liquids such as wine, which do not launder. Tosfos (120a DH Nosen) says that he puts water, but not on the Talis itself.


Mishnah Berurah (23): One may spread it out so it will not be folded, for then the entire Talis would catch fire.


Mishnah Berurah (24): The Poskim hold that one may intend for it to extinguish, unlike the Taz, just he may not run and jump and shake himself or the Talis in order that it will extinguish. Rather, he puts it on normally.


Kaf ha'Chayim (106): Pesach ha'Dvir asked why Chachamim counseled one to put on a burning Talis in order to save it, without concern for mortal danger, i.e. lest he burn! I say that the Talis is not aflame. This is dangerous! Rather, it is touching coals. Smoke is exuding. If it is left folded, perhaps it will catch flame. If one spreads it out, since it is merely smoking, it will extinguish immediately. Surely Chazal did not discuss a burning Talis, which is dangerous to wear. This is why they said 'fire Achaz Bo', i.e. it merely holds it, but it one unfolds it, it will extinguish by itself.


Kaf ha'Chayim (108): If a Ner or spark fell on the tablecloth, one may shake it. He does not intend to extinguish it, just that the tablecloth not catch fire. Since we permit here, all the more so regarding the tablecloth!