MENACHOS 73 (13 Cheshvan) - Dedicated by Rabbi Kornfeld and his wife in honor of the marriage of their son, Yehoshua Heshel, to Tzivyah Shmueli, tonight be'h. May they be Zocheh to build a Bayis Ne'eman b'Yisrael, and to raise children in the ways of Torah and Yir'as Shamayim!

1)

THE BERACHAH ON FOODS MADE FROM BREAD CRUMBS [bread: Berachah: crumbs]

(a)

Gemara

1.

(Mishnah - R. Chanina ben Gamliel): A Marcheshes is deep. Bread cooked in it is springy (some texts - soft).

2.

75b (Rav Yosef): Regarding Chavitza (a food made with bread crumbs):

i.

If some of the pieces are at least a k'Zayis, one blesses ha'Motzi (and Birkas ha'Mazon);

ii.

If all the pieces are less than a k'Zayis, one blesses Borei Minei Mezonos (and me'Ein Shalosh).

3.

Support (Rav Yosef, for himself - Beraisa): One blesses ha'Motzi on Menachos;

i.

(Mishnah): Every Minchah is broken into pieces the size of olives.

4.

Question (Abaye): Tana d'Vei R. Yishmael says that they are broken very finely, like flour. Surely, Kohanim would bless ha'Motzi!

i.

(Beraisa): If one gathered a k'Zayis (of crumbs), and ate it (on Pesach), if they are Matzah, he was Yotzei (they are considered "Lechem");

5.

Answer #1: The case is, he combined them into one mass.

6.

Objection (Seifa): This is when he ate them within the time to eat half a loaf. (If he made them one mass, it should say that he ate it!)

7.

Answer #2: The case is, they are from a big loaf.

8.

Question: What was the conclusion?

9.

Answer (Rav Sheshes): One blesses ha'Motzi, even if all the pieces are less than a k'Zayis.

10.

(Rava): This is only if they still look like bread.

11.

Berachos 37a (Beraisa): If wheat was ground (into flour), baked and cooked, if the pieces are intact, one blesses ha'Motzi. If not, one blesses (Borei Minei) Mezonos.

12.

37b (Beraisa #1): Bread made for Kutach (it was baked in the sun, and not in an oven) is exempt from Chalah.

13.

Contradiction (Beraisa #2): Chalah must be taken from it.

14.

Resolution (Seifa of Beraisa #2 - R. Yehudah): Its shape reveals about it. If it was formed into thick buns, it is obligated. If it is in strips, it is exempt.

15.

38b Rav Nachman: Shmuel says that one blesses Borei Pri ha'Adamah on cooked vegetables. Ula said in the name of R. Yochanan that one blesses sheha'Kol;

16.

Rav Nachman: They argue (like the following Tana'im):

i.

(Beraisa - R. Meir): One is Yotzei eating Matzah with a wafer (even if it was) soaked (in water), or if it was cooked but did not dissolve;

ii.

R. Yosi says, one is Yotzei with a soaked wafer, but not if it was cooked, even if it did not dissolve. (Cooked bread is not called bread. Likewise, cooking changes the Berachah for food. R. Meir holds that cooking changes neither.)

17.

Rejection: No. R. Yosi disqualifies cooked Matzah because it loses the taste of Matzah, but he agrees that vegetables do not lose their Berachah.

(b)

Rishonim

1.

Rambam (Hilchos Berachos 3:8): If one crumbed bread and cooked it in a pot or kneaded it with soup, if the pieces are at least a k'Zayis or it is recognized that they are bread and its form did not change, one blesses ha'Motzi on it. If the pieces are less than a k'Zayis or it lost the form of bread through cooking, one blesses Mezonos.

2.

Rosh (Berachos 6:10): Rashi says that Chavitza is bread cooked in a pan. This is difficult. If so, what was Rav Yosef's support from crumbs of a Minchah, which were not cooked? R. Tam explains that Chavitza is bread crumbs stuck together through milk or honey. 1) When pieces of bread were cooked, if the pieces are a k'Zayis, one blesses ha'Motzi. If they are not a k'Zayis, even though they have the form of bread, one blesses only Mezonos. 2) If it was stuck together through honey or soup, without cooking, if the pieces are a k'Zayis, one blesses ha'Motzi even if it lacks the form of bread. If they are not a k'Zayis, if they have the form of bread, one blesses ha'Motzi. If not, it is Mezonos.

3.

Rosh (Hilchos Chalah 2): If one made a dough (with intent to make bread), and later made Sufganim, i.e. fried it in oil or cooked it in water, Chalah must be taken, for we follow the initial dough (Chalah 1:5). R. Tam says that likewise, one blesses ha'Motzi after it is cooked or fried, just like we bless ha'Motzi on Menachos. The Gemara did not distinguish; this is for all Menachos, including Machavas and Marcheshes, even though they are fried in oil. It is unreasonable to distinguish fried in oil from cooked in water. However, he says that we do not bless ha'Motzi on Virimshish, even though it was obligated in Chalah, for it lacks the form of bread. R. Shimshon says that if one kneaded a proper dough, with intent to fry it in oil or cook it in water, it is exempt from Chalah. He learns from bread made for Kutach. If it was formed into thick buns it is Chayav. If it is in strips, it is exempt. Rashi explains that it is not baked in a oven. It is only dried in the sun. Even though the Chiyuv Chalah depends on the time of kneading, his intent to bake it in the sun exempts, for in the end he will not make bread. We obligate if he made a thick dough, lest it be confused with a regular dough. If it is in strips, this is not a concern, so it is exempt. The Yerushalmi exempts, lest one reconsider and make a cake. We can say that it is liable when he intends to bake a little with fire. We decree lest he take a Shi'ur for Chalah. We can say that the Bavli agrees. It obligates only a thick dough, for one is prone to reconsider and make bread from it. The Mishnah obligates a thick dough later made into Sufganim when he reconsidered. The Yerushalmi exempts even a big dough, if he intended to divide it into small doughs. This is like intent to make Sufganim. One blesses ha'Motzi on Menachos, i.e. on those baked in an oven or Soles, but not on those fried in oil on a pan. It lost from the form of bread. Alternatively, all Menachos are ha'Motzi, for they have only a little oil, so it is as if they are baked. One is not Yotzei Matzah with a cooked wafer, even though it did not dissolve. R. Meir argues, but the Halachah follows R. Yosi. The Beraisa that obligates ha'Motzi for cooked bread if the pieces are intact is like R. Meir, who says that cooking does not Mevatel baking (it is still bread). Also the Ramban says so.

(c)

Poskim

1.

Shulchan Aruch (OC 168:13): Chavitza, i.e. bread crumbs stuck together through soup, if it was cooked, if the pieces are a k'Zayis, even though they do not have the form of bread, one blesses ha'Motzi . If they are not a k'Zayis, even though they the form of bread, one blesses Mezonos.

i.

Gra (DH Im): The Yerushalmi says that 'the pieces are intact' means that they are a k'Zayis. It does not matter whether it has the form of bread, unlike Chavitza, which depends on the form. This is like the Rosh (in Berachos) and other Poskim. This is unlike the Rosh brought in Pesachim and Hilchos Chalah from R. Shimshon, that the Beraisa (about intact pieces) is like R. Meir, but we hold like R. Yosi. R. Yosi holds that one is not Yotzei with cooked Matzah. This is wrong. We cannot learn from there to Berachah (Berachos 38b)!

2.

Shulchan Aruch (ibid.): If it was not cooked, just it is stuck together through honey or soup, if the pieces are a k'Zayis, one blesses ha'Motzi even though it lacks the form of bread. If they are not a k'Zayis, if they have the form of bread, i.e. it is recognized and known that it is bread, one blesses ha'Motzi . If it lacks the form of bread, one blesses Mezonos

i.

Magen Avraham (28): The Mordechai concluded 'it was not totally dissolved.' The Beis Yosef intentionally omitted this, for the Mordechai holds like Rashi, that even if it was cooked, it lost the form of bread only if it totally dissolved. We hold that in any case, it lost the form of bread through cooking. If so, even if it was not cooked, if it is not recognizable that it is bread, it is not called the form of bread. The Gemara said that if one crumbed bread like flour, and kneaded it and baked it, one blesses ha'Motzi even if it lacks the form of bread. This is considered pieces at least a k'Zayis according to Rav Yosef, and it does not need the form of bread. It seems that this is even if it was fried in oil first, like the Menachos, like Tosfos (37b DH Chavitza, and the Rosh above). Therefore, people who make Primazlach (noodles?) from bread crumbs or soaked bread must bless ha'Motzi, since it was initially bread, and it does not lose the law of bread until the pieces are less than a k'Zayis. Even though the Beis Yosef says that the Rambam holds that if it totally lost the form of bread through cooking, one does not bless ha'Motzi even if the pieces are a k'Zayis, we do not hold like this, like the Shulchan Aruch says. If one mixed in flour and fried them in oil, it is not clear if we follow the majority (flour or bread crumbs). Those who fry whole pieces, obviously one blesses ha'Motzi, like the Shulchan Aruch says. One blesses ha'Motzi on Matzah meal. However, if one made Sufganim from Matzah meal mixed with eggs and fried in oil, since they were joined together through water and eggs, they changed. One blesses Mezonos, and all the more so if they were fried. This requires investigation.

ii.

Levush (10): If pieces of bread were a k'Zayis before cooking, even though they lost the form of bread, since they still have a Shi'ur, they did not lose their Berachah.

iii.

Eliyahu Rabah (22): Lechem Chamudos (6:27) did not understand why it depends on the size before cooking, since now they lack a k'Zayis. I say that the Levush agrees. He excludes if they were not a k'Zayis, and stuck together through cooking. This requires investigation. The Magen Avraham says that if one crumbed bread, kneaded it and baked it, one blesses Mezonos even if it lacks the form of bread, even if he fried in oil first. However, perhaps baking is different. This requires investigation. Also, why do we bless ha'Motzi on Menachos?

iv.

Nishmas Adam (54:4): The Gemara did not mention that he baked them later. Rashi said so. He must hold that it is unreasonable that joining through liquids makes it bread. We find that this is Mevatel it from being bread! However, in Menachos Rashi did not mention that he baked them. I say that this is unlike Matzah balls. Rav Yosef supported himself from a Beraisa that one blesses ha'Motzi if the pieces are a k'Zayis. One might have thought that one blesses Mezonos. According to Rashi, that Chavitza is cooked, the Beraisa is no proof. Perhaps it is like R. Meir, but R. Yosi holds that cooking is Mevatel the status of bread! Tosfos holds that Chavitza is stuck together through soup. What was the Hava Amina that this would be Mevatel bread? R. Shimshon (brought in the Rosh) holds that Menachos are ha'Motzi because there is only a little oil. If so, what was the proof from Menachos? Tosfos says that the Beraisa of gathering crumbs does not discuss Menachos, rather, bread crumbs. How does this prove anything about Chavitza? Rav Yosef needed a proof for pieces that are a k'Zayis, but it was clear that if they are smaller, one blesses Mezonos. Abaye holds that one blesses ha'Motzi even if they are less than a k'Zayis. What do they argue about? I say that Rav Yosef held that pieces less than a k'Zayis are not important, so one does not bless ha'Motzi on them. This is like the Ra'avad, and R. Chananel regarding Tzenumah. Rav Yosef teaches that if they are a k'Zayis, one blesses ha'Motzi, unlike R. Chiya (39a). Along with this, he teaches that this is even if he mixed the pieces with soup (or cooked them, according to Rashi). He brought a proof from Menachos. Abaye refuted his proof from Tana d'Vei R. Yishmael, and from the Beraisa of gathering a k'Zayis. Rav Yosef answered that when a big piece remains, all keep their importance. We conclude like Rava, that one blesses ha'Motzi if they have the form of bread. According to Rav Yosef, they lost Birkas ha'Motzi only due to size, so when they are joined, they regain their importance. We hold that they lost Birkas ha'Motzi because they lost the form of bread, so joining them together does not return the form of bread. The Rambam holds that even when the pieces are a k'Zayis, it is ha'Motzi only if they have some form of bread. In Hilchos Ma'aseh ha'Korbanos (13:6), he says that Minchos Machavas and Marcheshes were baked; they were not fried at all. His text (63a) was Ma'aseh Marcheshes is 'Rach' (soft). The text of Rashi and Semag is 'Rochashin' (spongy).

v.

Mishnah Berurah (59): If Matzah balls were cooked or fried, the custom is that one blesses Mezonos. If one baked them, one should eat them only in a meal. If there is much oil or honey, one blesses Mezonos. If one kneaded them only with water, it is proper bread.

vi.

Kaf ha'Chayim (85): If Matzah meal was mixed with oil and eggs and fried in oil, one blesses Mezonos. If he baked it, it is Pas Kisnin, so one blesses ha'Motzi only if he fixed a meal on it.

See Also:

OTHER D.A.F. RESOURCES
ON THIS DAF