More Discussions for this daf
1. A "certain town" and fixed Kesubos 2. Carrying the Milah knife in Reshus ha'Rabim 3. Testifying for oneself
4. Rashi on going from a house on one side of mavoi to the other 5. Asra D'Rebbi Yehuda Ben Beseira 6. City that followed the view of Rebbi Eliezer
DAF DISCUSSIONS - SHABBOS 130

Jeff Ram asked:

?Dear Rabbi Kornfeld:

1. In our Mishna, it seemed to me that the case of Rebbe Eliezer must also
be that Gentiles are not "available". Otherwise, why wouldn't one just
instruct the gentile to carry the knife. We learned that Amira L'nochri of
an isur d'oreisa is like doing the melacha oneself. Doesn't that imply
that Amira L'nochri of an isur d'oreisa is on a lower madrega than doing
the melacha oneself?

2. Regarding whether or not gentiles are "available", I saw where the
Chasam Sofer ?(Teshuvos Yoreh Dayah) says the Rambam holds that the milah of
a gentile is kosher. He asks, why don't we have a gentile do the mila? The
mitzva of the baby will be fulfilled. Regarding the mitzva of the father,
even though we have the principle of "ein shelichus? b'akum", the Jew can
*pay* the gentile as his worker, and use the principle of "yad poel, yad
ba'al habayis hee", and the father would therefore be m'kayem his mitzva
too. So why not do the mila in question this way?

3. I thought an answer might include the idea of the mitzva is chaviv to?
us, and we don't want a gentile doing it. BUT aren't all mitzvos,
including Shabbos, chaviv to us? Even beyond that, since in the case of
the Chasam Sofer, gentiles were "available", I wondered why his question
isn't simply to have the gentile carry the knife?!! If you are going to
instruct the gentile to do the mila, why wouldn't he just instruct the
gentile to carry the knife, even in reshus harabim. In a case where there
is only 2 choices, doing the melacha d'oreisa yourself, or instructing a
gentile to do it for you, isn't amira L'nochri of melacha? d'oreisa a lesser
madreiga of isur than doing the melacha yourself?

warm regards,

Jeff Ram

Jerusalem

The Kollel replies:

1. Rebbi Eliezer permits even a Jew to do Melachah for the sake of Milah, and he does not require one to have a gentile do it, even if there is a gentile available. His ruling is based on a verse in the Torah which, according to him, permits a Jew to do a Melachah in preparation of the Mitzvah of Milah just like it permits a Jew to do the actual Milah itself. Once the Torah permits it, there is no need for us to be stringent and have a gentile do the Melachah for us. We find this clearly later in the Gemara (130b), where Rebbi Eliezer permits bringing the knife through a Reshus ha'Rabim even where it is possible to bring it through a Karmelis.

However, TOSFOS there actually asks your question in the case of carrying a knife through Reshus ha'Rabim when it is possible to carry it through a Karmelis, bringing proof from a Gemara later that one should minimize the desecration of Shabbos where possible. The TOSFOS HA'ROSH answers the question by saying that Rebbi Eliezer permits carrying it through Reshus ha'Rabim only where that is the shorter distance, and by getting the knife to the place of the Milah fast one thereby shows his love for the Mitzvah. The same answer will apply here regarding your question; in order to ensure that the knife is brought promptly and that the Milah is performed smoothly, it is permitted for a Jew to bring the knife even when a gentile is available.

2. I did not find the Chasam Sofer to which you refer, in his Chidushim and in the She'eilos u'Teshuvos to Yoreh De'ah. Do you have a specific reference for it? To the contrary, the PISCHEI TESHUVAH (Yoreh De'ah 264:5) cites the Sha'agas Aryeh (#49) who says that even Bnei Keturah (the granchildren of Avraham Avinu from children other than Yitzchak Avinu, who must be circumcized according to the Rambam), who are themselves Chayav in Milah, are Pasul to perform Milah for a Jew, even according to the Rambam.

3. The Halachah does not follow the opinion of Rebbi Eliezer, and so for us, it is certainly forbidden to do a Melachah in preparation of Milah, and it is forbidden even to do an Isur d'Rabanan such as Amirah l'Nochri (as the Gemara says on 130b).

Regarding your question about Shabbos being Chaviv to us, it is not the fact that Milah is Chaviv which permits (according to Rebbi Eliezer) the desecration of Shabbos to prepare for the Milah, but rather it is the verse in the Torah which permits it when there is a need, as we mentioned above in #1. (The fact that Milah is Chaviv is only mentioned to show that it is necessary to bring the knife faster, which is why it may be brought through a Reshus ha'Rabim instead of a Karmelis, see above 1.)

Be well,

M. KORNFELD