More Discussions for this daf
1. Keri'as Shema - biblical or rabbinic? 2. Day and then night 3. Eating in the dark
4. Temimus 5. The posuk beshochbicha uvikumecha 6. Zman Krias Shma
7. earliest time to say Shema in the evening 8. Uva Hashemesh Vetaher 9. When does a poor man eat?
10. Be'arvin 11. What to read 12. The poor man's meal
13. Being Motzi another person with Shema 14. Eating korbanot until chatzot 15. The opposite of Tahor....
16. Sitting during Shema 17. Charts 18. When does Day Begin?
19. Does the Ri agree with the Yerushalmi 20. va'Yehi Erev va'Yehi Voker Yom Echad 21. Berachos 002: Shema
22. Kri'as Shema 23. To keep a person from Aveirah 24. Night or Day?
25. mi'Sha'ah sheha'Kohanim 26. Where do the Kohanim eat Terumah? 27. "reading" ; what about Kohanim?
28. Sof Zeman Shema 29. Second Answer of the Gemara 30. Zemanim
31. Rashi's Shitah for early Ma'ariv 32. Different Shitos in Shema 33. k'Sus ha'Zeh she'Eino Nirdam
34. Sunrise and Sunset 35. Translation of the Word "mi'Chi" 36. Tzeis or Bein ha'Shemashos
37. When do the Poor Eat? 38. The Gemara's Second Answer 39. Ashkenazi Keri'as Shema at Bedtime
40. Sunrise / Sunset 41. Iy Ba'is Eima 42. Which Shi'ur is earlier?
43. Zman Shema 44. When An Ani Eats His Bread 45. Rabeinu Tam in Tosfos
46. Is there a typo in the first Tosfos? 47. Times for Keri'as Shema 48. Tosfos and Rebbi Yehoshua Ben Levi
49. Tosfos and Rebbi Yehoshua Ben Levi 50. Codewords for Time of Earliest Kerias Shema 51. Me'eimasai
52. Korei vs Kor'in 53. Tzeis ha'Kochavim 54. Shitas Rabeinu Tam
55. Rashi on praying early in shul 56. The answer of Ma'arava 57. Rabeinu Tam's opinion of Sheki'ah
58. Ma'arava 59. Latest time 60. Time for saying Shema
61. áòøáéï 62. îúé àåëìéí äòðééí 63. îùòä ùäòðé àåëì ôúå
 DAF DISCUSSIONS - BERACHOS 2
1. Marcus Abisror asks:

The gemara says the maarava had the same question but did not have the answer, now the question was (according to rashi) on the basis of the beraita, meaning a kasha, that maybe the korban is meacev. According to tosafot this is not a problem because the gemara is kinda asking a shaila meaning we agree with the beraita that the korban is not meacev, now what time is it taluy in. So now it's acceptable to answer from another beraita that says tzeis hakochavim, that's why it's not a question on tosafot that they should bring a proof from our mishna, but now let's go back to rashi, that the question is a question on the basis of the first beraita, it seems another beraita wouldn't solve anything, because the beraita said what it said and the gemara wants to know why, and then the maarava just bring another beraita, it seems counterintuitive.

Marcus Abisror, Long Branch

2. The Kollel replies:

Shalom Marcus,

I may not be fully catching your point, so I will answer as I understood it.

Rashi explains the doubt of Bnei Ma'arava, really Rabbi Shela's issue, as a two-way read of the verse: does "u'Va haShemesh, v'Taher" mean the end of Sheki'as haChamah, which is Tzais haKochavim, so the Kohen, though he can bring his Korban only the next morning since Korbanos are not brought after sunset, still becomes permitted to eat Terumah that very evening once his days of Tumah have ended at sunset; or does "v'Taher" refer to the next day when he brings his Korban, and "u'Va haShemesh" would then be read as morning, meaning only after the day shines, the eighth day with the Korban, may he eat Terumah.

Tosafos agrees to the first side of course, but explain the other side differently: "u'Va haShemesh" means the beginning of the end of the seventh day Shekiah but not yet Tzais haKochavim, ending the days of Tumah, but "v'Taher" refers specifically to bringing the Korban, not just becoming Tahor. On that read too, the implication would be to wait until the next morning when the Korban can be brought.

If so, once we find a Beraisa that states explicitly that a Kohen eats Terumah at Tzais haKochavim, it proves there is no need to wait until the next morning, both according to Rashi and according to Tosafos.

If I missed something in your intent, please correct me.

Aharon Steiner

3. Marcus asks:

I'll only speak in rashi for the sake of clarity: the gemara brought a beraita that the korban is not meacev. Then the gemara asks how do I know that this is the right way of reading the pasuk maybe the korban is meacev. We see it's a question on the beraita. Skip ahead to the maarava for the gemara says they had the same question (a question on the beraita) how does bringing another beraita help, we just asked on the beraita how is it mashma like that in the pasuk, so I could ask the same thing on this beraita.

This is not a problem according to tosafot, because tosafot learns both sides that the korban is not meacev, so the gemara was not asking on the beraita, rather was wondering when is the right time that your allowed to eat teruma, now the first beraita doesn't answer the question, but the second one does, so now it make sense to answer from this beraita.

4. The Kollel replies:

Shalom again,

Now I got your point! Thank you for clarifying. I think the Gemara means that Bnei Ma'arava did not hear Rav She'ila's "Shi'ur" in which he dealt with the question what the Pshat in the Pasuk is, and after they found a Beraisa that specifically says after Tzeis ha'Kochavim it is permitted for a Tamei Kohen to eat Terumah, they said the same "Shi'ur" and got to the same Pshat as Rav She'ila on their own. The Beraisa is not a Ra'ayah, but rather a trigger to say the same explanation as Rav She'ila without hearing it beforehand from him or his students.

Aharon Steiner