we see from tosafot that we can apply the times of tefila to zman kerias shema, the only problem was the trei kuli, so why doesnt tosfot answer that we pasken like the chachomim of r' yehuda that hold ad haerev, which most poskim hold is skiat hachama, and that would be the same time as the ri that says mishekidesh hayom which is the begining of bein hashemashot, aka shkiat hachama
Marcus Abisror, Long Branch
Shalom Marcus,
I'm not sure I understand your question. What Tosfos is trying to explain is how do we recite Ma'ariv after Plag ha'Minchah which is more than an hour before Sheki'ah! Your solution is valid only if the question was how do recite Ma'ariv right after, or right at, the time of Sheki'ah time.
If I am missing something, please explain your question more.
Kol Tuv,
Aharon Steiner
It's mevuar from the tur and many rishonim, that the times of the ri is shkiah and not before, so if we're trying to find a shita for shkiah, then we have the chochomim of reb yehuda, in fact you could ask like you mentioned how does the ri help, there still time before his zmanim that people daven maariv, and tosafot would have to agree with rashi, but whatever the answer is we see we're good enough with the the times of the ri, so then just say chochomim of reb yehuda.
Shalom again,
You are right -- I had not read your words carefully enough, and now I see you were asking about the Ri.
It is a good question. My first take, and this is how several commentators seem to read it, is that although the Chachamim say Tefilas Minchah is Ad ha'Erev, that only creates room for Ma'ariv to follow, since once Minchah's time ends it is possible that Ma'ariv's time begins. That is the plain meaning of the Sugya about Rav davening Shabbos on Erev Shabbos. But there is no absolute rule that the end of Minchah automatically licenses Ma'ariv right then. The Rishonim whom the Ri cites state explicitly that the time for Tefilas Ma'ariv begins mishe'Kidesh ha'Yom, and that is exactly the timing the Ri wants us to follow.
Some tried to read the Ri as bundling together both the Chachamim and those Tana'im who say mishe'Kidesh ha'Yom, and that the Ri just did not spell it out. That does not fit so well with the Tosfos ha'Rosh, who notes that those Tana'im are in a Beraisa against the Tana of our Mishnah, while the Chachamim appear in the Mishnah itself. In any case, the simpler reading is the first one: the Ri holds like the Tana'im who say it explicitly.
I know this answer might be a bit of a Dochak, but at the moment I do not have a better approach.
Kol Tuv,
Aharon Steiner