NIDAH 65 - Dedicated l'Iluy Nishmas Mrs. Lily (Leah bas Pinchas) Kornfeld, who passed away on 8 Av 5765, by their daughter Shifra and family.

1)

(a)We query Rav, who, we just learned, gives a Bogeres only one night, from a Beraisa, where Rebbi gave a woman four nights in twelve months. What was the case?

(b)Why could Rebbi not have been referring to twelve months of ...

1. ... a Ketanah?

2. ... a Na'arah? What had Shmuel said about that?

(c)How do we know that Shmuel was not coming to restrict Na'arus to a minimum of six months, but did not mean to preclude more than six months?

1)

(a)We query Rav, who, we just learned, gives a Bogeres only one night, from a Beraisa, where Rebbi gave a woman four nights in twelve months. The case there was that - her husband went on a journey after the first Bi'ah, returned after three months, performed a second Bi'ah during which she saw blood, and after this happened two more times, she went to see Rebbi, who ruled that what she saw was Dam Besulim.

(b)Rebbi could not have been referring to twelve months of ...

1. ... a Ketanah - since our Mishnah gives a Ketanah 'ad she'Tichyeh ha'Makah' (and not four nights).

2. ... a Na'arah, because, as Shmuel taught - the entire Na'arus only lasts six months.

(c)And we know that Shmuel was not coming to restrict Na'arus to a minimum of six months, but did not mean to preclude more than six months - because he said ' ... Ela Shishah Chodshim Bil'vad' (implying no less, and no more).

2)

(a)How do we then try to establish the Beraisa?

(b)We reject this suggestion however, due to a statement of Rav himself. What did Rav reply, when Rav Chin'na bar Shalmaya asked him what the Din will be if the time to see arrives whilst the woman is married? What did he mean when he said 'Einan Ela Achas'?

(c)So how do we next attempt to establish the case?

(d)Under what condition will we...

1. ... accept this suggestion?

2. ... not accept it?

2)

(a)So we try to establish the Beraisa - by two days of Katnus and two days of Na'arus.

(b)We reject this suggestion however, due to a statement of Rav himself, who, when Rav Chin'na bar Shalmaya asked him what the Din will be if the time to see arrives whilst the woman is married, replied - 'Kol Be'ilos she'Atah Bo'el Einan Ela Achas' meaning that - however many times she saw whilst she was a Ketanah, they are considered one, in which case she will be allowed another three Be'ilos before becoming Tamei.

(c)So we next attempt to establish the case - where they performed the first Bi'ah whilst she was a Ketanah, the second, whilst she was a Na'arah and the third and fourth, when she was already a Bogeres.

(d)We will accept ...

1. ... this suggestion - if a woman who married after Bagrus has two nights (and not one like Rav), because then, just as the Bi'os of Katnus detract one night from the nights of Na'arus (as we just explained), so too, will the Bi'os of Na'arus detract one night from the nights of Bagrus.

2. ... not accept it - if a woman who married after Bagrus has one night (like Rav), because then we ought to detract something from it in our case, permitting her only the Be'ilas Mitzvah (effectively leaving her with less than four nights).

3)

(a)So we finally establish the case where they performed one Bi'ah during Katnus and three during Na'arus. On what grounds did we initially decline to establish the Beraisa in this way?

(b)How do we now get round this problem? When did the four Bi'os take place?

3)

(a)So we finally establish the case where they performed one Bi'ah during Katnus and three during Na'arus. Initially, we declined to establish the Beraisa in this way - because, assuming that the four Bi'os took place over four equal periods, nine months of Na'arus would not be feasible, as we already explained.

(b)We get round that however - by establishing the first Bi'ah as having taken place during Katnus, and the second, third and fourth Bi'os, six months later, all during the six months of Na'arus.

4)

(a)What did Menimin from Saxony, who was traveling to Neherda'a (where Shmuel lived), intend to do when he got there?

(b)What objection did Shmuel raise when he heard about it?

(c)When Menimin died on the way. Shmuel announced the Pasuk in Amos "Lo Ye'uneh la'Tzadik Kol Avon". What did he mean by that?

(d)Based on a Pasuk in Amos, what did Rav Chin'na bar Shalmaya say in the name of Rav, in connection with the Parnasah of an old man?

4)

(a)Menimin from Saxony, who was traveling to Neherda'a (where Shmuel lived) - intended to give the entire first night to a Bogeres, like Rav ...

(b)... even though she had already had a previous sighting, which Rav specifically forbade (as we learned earlier), and to which Shmuel now objected.

(c)When Menimin died on the way, Shmuel announced the Pasuk "Lo Ye'uneh la'Tzadik Kol Avon", by which he meant that - Hash-m had prevented Rav from being punished on account of Menimin, who was about to issue an erroneous ruling in his name.

(d)Based on a Pasuk in Amos, Rav Chin'na bar Shalmaya rules in the name of Rav that - when a man's teeth fall out (a reference to old age), his Parnasah diminishes (see Agados Maharsha).

65b----------------------------------------65b

5)

(a)Beis Hillel adds to his ruling in the Seifa of our Mishnah ('Kol ha'Laylah Kulah') 've'Nosnin lah Onah Sheleimah'. How does Rabban Shimon ben Gamliel interpret this.

(b)We query it from a Beraisa however, which discusses someone whose wine or olive press is Tamei, but who wants to press his grapes or olives be'Taharah. What must he do with ...

1. ... the beams (which press the fruit), the palm-branches (which serve as brooms) and the actual wine-press (in which the fruit are placed for pressing)?

2. ... the Akalim (a kind of lattice-work which covers the fruit for pressing and keeps it together beneath the beam) if is made of wickerwork or hemp?

(c)What is the criterion for these differences?

(d)The Tana Kama requires a twelve- month waiting period for Akalim made of different kinds of bull-rushes. What problem do we have with Rabban Shimon ben Gamliel, who says from one season to the next?

5)

(a)Beis Hillel adds to his ruling in the Seifa of our Mishnah ('Kol ha'Laylah Kulah') 've'Nosnin lah Onah Sheleimah', which Rabban Shimon ben Gamliel interprets as - a night plus half a day.

(b)We query this however, from a Beraisa, which discusses someone whose wine or olive-press is Tamei, but who wants to press his grapes or olives be'Taharah. He must then ...

1. ... thoroughly wash the beams (which press the fruit), the palm-branches (which serve as brooms) and the actual wine-press (in which the fruit is placed for pressing).

2. ... dry the Akalim (a kind of lattice-work which covers the fruit for pressing and keeps it together beneath the beam) made of wickerwork or of hemp (see also Seifer 'Eizehu Mekoman').

(c)The criterion for these differences is - the extent that they absorb the wine or the oil.

(d)The Tana Kama requires not using the Akalim made of different kinds of bull-rushes for twelve months. The problem with Rabban Shimon ben Gamliel, who requires from one season to the next is that - he seems to be mimicking the opinion of the Tana Kama.

6)

(a)How do we solve the problem? In which cases does Rabban Shimon's ben Gamliel's opinion differ from that of the Tana Kama?

(b)Rebbi Yossi disagrees with the Tana Kama's method of Taharah. What does he prescribe (besides Hag'alah in boiling water)?

(c)What does Rabban Shimon ben Gamliel in the name of Rebbi Yossi require (besides placing them underneath a pipe of fast-flowing water)?

(d)For how long must he leave them there?

6)

(a)We solve the problem however - by establishing Rabban Shimon ben Gamliel by an early or late season, which may be a little more or a little less than twelve months.

(b)Rebbi Yossi disagrees with the Tana Kama's method of Taharah. He prescribes either Hag'alah in boiling water - or boiling them in olives-water.

(c)Rabban Shimon ben Gamliel in the name of Rebbi Yossi requires either placing them underneath a pipe of flowing water - or in a spring of fast-flowing water ...

(d)... for one Onah.

7)

(a)What problem do we have with the Beraisa's next statement 'ke'Derech she'Amru be'Yayin Nesech, Kach Amru be'Taharos'?

(b)How do we therefore amend it?

(c)The Tana just gave Rabban Shimon ben Gamliel's Shi'ur in Rebbi Yossi as an Onah, which Rebbi Chiya bar Aba Amar Rebbi Yochanan defines as either a day or a night. What does Rebbi Chanah She'una (or Rebbi Chanah bar She'una) Amar Rebbi Yochanan say?

(d)According to Rav Shmuel bar Rebbi Yitzchak they do not even argue, because one of them speaks in the seasons of Nisan and Tishrei, the other one in the seasons of Tamuz and Teives. What does he mean by that?

7)

(a)The problem with the Beraisa's next statement 'ke'Derech she'Amru be'Yayin Nesech Kach Amru be'Taharos' is that - this is surely the wrong way round, seeing as we are talking about Taharos, and not Yayin Nesech?

(b)We therefore amend it to - 'ke'Derech she'Amru be'Taharos, Kach Amru be'Yayin Nesech'.

(c)The Tana just gave Rabban Shimon ben Gamliel's Shi'ur in Rebbi Yossi as an Onah, which Rebbi Chiya bar Aba Amar Rebbi Yochanan defines as either a day or a night. Rebbi Chanah She'una (or Rebbi Chanah bar She'una) Amar Rebbi Yochanan defines it as - half a day plus half a night.

(d)According to Rav Shmuel bar Rebbi Yitzchak they do not even argue, because one of them speaks in the seasons of Nisan and Tishrei - where the days and nights are equal to one another, the other one in the seasons of Tamuz and Teives - where the day is shorter than the night (so we add them up and take the average).

8)

(a)What is now the problem with Rabban Shimon ben Gamliel's earlier definition of Onah regarding a woman who had a sighting in her father's house?

(b)On what grounds do we reject the suggestion that what he means there is half the day and half the night?

(c)Then how do we explain 'Laylah va'Chazti Yom'?

(d)What alternative answer do we give? Why does the girl require a longer time period?

8)

(a)The problem with Rabban Shimon ben Gamliel's earlier definition of Onah (regarding a woman who had a sighting in her father's house) is that - the night and half a day that he requires there appears to clash with his ruling here.

(b)We reject the suggestion that what he means there is half the day and half the night - since this is not what is implied by his words 'a night and a half a day'.

(c)We therefore reconcile the two - by interpreting it to mean either the night-time of Tekufas Nisan or Tishrei, or half a day and half a night of the nights of Tekufas Tamuz and Teives.

(d)Alternatively - 'Laylah ve'Chatzi Yom' is meant literally, because since a Bi'ah is forbidden without a Kesuvah, they have first to write one, and the details of a Kesuvah until it is finally signed take a long time. Consequently, Rabban Shimon ben Gamliel gives her an extra half a night.

9)

(a)What are Rav and Shmuel's final ruling on the issue, irrespective of whether the woman's time to see has arrived or not?

(b)What problem does Rav Chisda have with this from an earlier ruling of Rebbi?

(c)Why did Rabah find Rav Chisda's choice of source for his Kashya strange?

(d)Why indeed, did Rav Chisda prefer to ask from there?

9)

(a)Rav and Shmuel's final ruling on the issue, irrespective of whether the woman's time to see has arrive or not is that - immediately after the Be'ilas Mitzvah, he is obligated to separate.

(b)The problem Rav Chisda has with that is from Rebbi's earlier ruling giving her four nights in twelve months.

(c)Rabah finds Rav Chisda's choice of source for his Kashya strange - because he could just as well have asked from our Mishnah, where Beis Hillel also allows longer time periods in all three cases.

(d)But Rav Chisda preferred to ask from there - because of the principle 'Ma'aseh Rav' (an incident that actually took place is a stronger proof).

10)

(a)In any event, Rav and Shmuel have a problem. How will they solve it? On what do they base their ruling?

(b)Ula stated that when Rebbi Yochanan and Resh Lakish were dealing with Tinokes, they only took from it as much as a fox takes from a furrow. What does Tinokes mean?

(c)How much does a fox take from the furrow?

(d)What did Ula then mean? How did he conclude?

10)

(a)In any event, Rav and Shmuel have a problem - which they will solve by citing a Beraisa as their source.

(b)Ula stated that when Rebbi Yochanan and Resh Lakish were dealing with 'Tinokes' - the Mishnah which we are currently learning, they only took from it as much as a fox takes from a furrow ...

(c)... which is no more than a bit of earth.

(d)What Ula meant was that - they took no Halachos from our Mishnah. In fact, they concluded the Sugya with 'Bo'el Be'ilas Mitzvah u'Poresh' (like Rav and Shmuel).

11)

(a)What did Rebbi Aba mean, when he asked Rav Asi whether, according to Rebbi Yochanan and Resh Lakish, a Ba'al Nefesh (a person with a lot of Yir'as Shamayim) should finish his Bi'ah or not?

(b)What did Rav Asi reply?

11)

(a)When Rebbi Aba asked Rav Asi whether, according to Rebbi Yochanan and Resh Lakish, a Ba'al Nefesh (a person with a lot of Yir'as Shamayim) should not finish his Bi'ah, he meant to ask - whether, in the event that, in the above cases, the woman sees blood in the middle of the Bi'ah, a Ba'al Nefesh should not separate at once.

(b)To which Rav Asi replied that - the Chachamim were afraid to initiate such a Takanah, for fear that he will then initially curtail his Bi'ah (or perhaps even refrain from being Bo'el altogether), thereby negating the Mitzvah of P'ru u'Revu.

12)

(a)With regard to the first two cases in our Mishnah, what does Rebbi Meir rule in the event that the sighting extends beyond the four nights or the one night?

(b)Like which opinion in our Mishnah does he hold?

(c)And what does he say there where the sighting does not extend beyond the given period, but where she sees afresh during the period that she is Asur according to Beis Shamai but Mutar according to Beis Hillel?

(d)What two distinctions does Rebbi Meir cite between the blood of Nidus and that of Besulim, besides the fact that the one comes from the M'kor, and the other, from the side?

(e)This is the opinion of Rebbi Meir. What do the Chachamim cited by Rebbi Yochanan say?

12)

(a)With regard to the first two cases in our Mishnah, Rebbi Meir rules that - in the event that the sighting extends beyond the four nights or the one night, the woman is obligated to make a Bedikah ...

(b)... like Beis Shamai in our Mishnah.

(c)And he says the same with regard to where the sighting does not extend beyond the given period, but where she sees afresh during the period that she is Asur according to Beis Shamai but Mutar according to Beis Hillel.

(d)The two distinctions Rebbi Meir cites between the blood of Nidus and that of Besulim (besides the fact that the one comes from the M'kor, the other, from the side) are - 1. that the former is red and 2. that it is Mezuham (filthy and smelly), whereas the latter is not.

(e)This is the opinion of Rebbi Meir. The Chachamim cited by Rebbi Yochanan say that - the various kinds of blood are all considered the same - like Beis Hillel (see Seifer 'Eizehu Mekoman').

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