KIDUSHIN 73-75 - Sponsored by the Turkels of NY to merit a Refu'ah Sheleimah for Mindl Adina bas Yentl Yenta Yehudis and Yehuda Leib ben Tzipora Rochel and Avrohom Yeshaya ben Aviva, among the ailing of Klal Yisrael.

1)

(a)Under which circumstances does the Tana believe the owner of an article which he sold, when he attests that he sold it to Reuven and not to Shimon?

(b)If he had handed over the article to the purchaser, why would we need him to attest who purchased it anyway?

(c)If it did not concern the owner who bought the article, he would not be believed. Why is that?

(d)Of what concern is it to him which of the two is the purchaser?

(e)Why can we not ascertain who the purchaser is by determining which of them paid him?

1)

(a)The Tana believes the owner of an article which he sold, when he attests that he sold it to Reuven and not to Shimon - provided he still has the article in his possession (but once he has handed it to the purchaser).

(b)If he had handed over the article to the purchaser, we would still need him to testify who purchased it - in a case where they came into Beis-Din both holding it.

(c)If it did not concern the owner who bought the article, he would not be believed - because then he would not be careful to note who purchased it.

(d)His concern in this case is based on the fact - that should he change his mind and give the article to the wrong person, he would stand to be cursed with a 'Mi she'Parah' (that is due to anyone who retracts from a sale without sound justification).

(e)We cannot ascertain who the purchaser is by determining which of them paid him - because the Tana is speaking when they both paid, one with the owner's consent, the other, who simply pushed the money into his hand against his will.

2)

(a)And under which circumstances does the Tana believe a Dayan to say which of the litigants he vindicated and which he obligated to pay?

(b)Why do we not just see which of the two litigants is holding the document of merit?

(c)Why is it not possible for the Dayan himself or even another Dayan to litigate all over again? What if it had been possible?

(d)What would be a case of Shuda d'Dayna?

2)

(a)The Tana believes a Dayan to say which of the litigants he vindicated and which he obligated to pay - only as long as the litigants are still in his presence, but once they take their leave, he is no longer believed, because he has no further interest in the case.

(b)We cannot just see which of the two litigants is holding the document of merit - because the Tana speaks when the document got torn up.

(c)It is not possible for the Dayan himself or even another Dayan to litigate all over again (which would be preferable to believing the Dayan) - because we are speaking in a case of 'Shuda d'Dayna' (when the Halachah is based on the whim of the Dayan).

(d)'Shuda d'Dayna' would be for example, a case - where before he died, someone declared that all his property should be given to Tuvia, and two Tuvia's turned up to claim the money.

3)

(a)Rav Nachman rules that the midwife, the father and the mother are believed to testify that a baby is a Bechor, though he does not give them all the same time-period. During which stage does he believe ...

1. ... the midwife?

2. ... the baby's mother?

(b)On what basis is the father believed forever?

(c)The Chachamim in a Beraisa confine the father's credibility to testifying that his son is a Bechor. In what way does Rebbi Yehudah extend it?

3)

(a)Rav Nachman rules that the midwife, the father and the mother are believed to testify that a baby is a Bechor, though he does not give them all the same time-period. He believes ...

1. ... the midwife - immediately (since she is the only person who knows who the baby is at this stage).

2. ... the baby's mother - during the first seven days (since at that stage, she is the only person who knows).

(b)The father is believed forever - because the Torah writes in Ki Setzei "Ki Es ha'Bechor ben ha'Senu'ah Yakir".

(c)The Chachamim in a Beraisa confine the father's credibility to testifying that his son is a Bechor. Rebbi Yehudah extends it - to testifying that he is a ben Gerushah or a ben Chalutzah.

4)

(a)What does Aba Shaul mean when he calls a Shesuki 'Beduki'?

(b)What does Raban Gamliel (and Rebbi Eliezer) say in the Mishnah in Kesuvos regarding a pregnant woman who claims that the father is such and such a Kohen?

(c)Rebbi Yehoshua does not believe her. Like whom is the Halachah?

(d)Why did Rebbi find it necessary to repeat Aba Shaul's ruling, seeing as he already taught us that of Raban Gamliel? Why did he not just add in Kesuvos 've'Chen Amar Aba Shaul'?

4)

(a)When Aba Shaul calls a Shesuki 'Beduki', he means - that we ask the mother whose child he is and we believe what she says.

(b)Raban Gamliel (and Rebbi Eliezer) say in the Mishnah in Kesuvos that if a pregnant woman claims that the father is such and such a Kohen - she is believed.

(c)Rebbi Yehoshua does not believe her - and Rav Yehudah Amar Shmuel rules like him.

(d)Rebbi found it necessary to repeat Aba Shaul's ruling, even though he already taught us that of Raban Gamliel (and does not simply add 've'Chen Amar Aba Shaul') - because Raban Gamliel confines his ruling to the woman herself, he does not believe her concerning her daughter, who is Pasul from the Kehunah, whereas Aba Shaul does.

5)

(a)This answer goes according to those who actually confine Raban Gamliel's ruling to the woman herself (but not to her child). How will those who extend Raban Gamliel ruling to her child, explain why Rebbi finds it necessary to cite Aba Shaul?

(b)Like whom does Rav rule?

5)

(a)This answer goes according to those who confine Raban Gamliel's ruling to the woman herself, but not to her child. Those who extend Raban Gamliel ruling to her child, explain that Rebbi finds it necessary to cite Aba Shaul - because Raba Gamliel's ruling is confined to an unmarried woman, where most of the town are permitted to her, whereas Aba Shaul believes the woman even if she is an Arusah (and most people in the town are forbidden to her) or where most people are forbidden to her for other reasons.

(b)Rava rules like Aba Shaul.

6)

(a)The Tana Kama of our Mishnah permits all those who are forbidden to enter the Kahal to intermarry. What does Rebbi Yehudah say?

(b)What compromise does Rebbi Elazar make?

(c)What does he say about a Safek marrying a Safek?

(d)What are the three cases of Safek?

6)

(a)The Tana Kama of our Mishnah permits all those who are forbidden to enter the Kahal to intermarry. Rebbi Yehudah - forbids them.

(b)Rebbi Elazar - permits those who are Vadai Pasul with those who are Vadai Pasul, but forbids those who are a Safek to marry those who are a Vadai (in case the Safek is Kosher).

(c)He forbids a Safek to marry a Safek too (in case one of them is Kosher and the other, Pasul).

(d)The three cases of Safek are a Shesuki, an Asufi and a Kuti.

7)

(a)What is the problem with explaining ...

1. ... the Tana Kama of our Mishnah literally (that Mamzerim, Nesinim, Shesukim and Asufim are permitted to intermarry)?

2. ... Rebbi Yehudah with regard to the case of a Vadai intermarrying with a Safek?

(b)Why can Rebbi Yehudah not be referring to a Ger marrying a Mamzeres (which we know he forbids, as we learned above)?

(c)To explain Rebbi Yehudah, how do we therefore attempt to interpret 'Kol ha'Asurim Lavo b'Kahal'? Which Kahal is the Tana referring to?

(d)What do we mean when we say 'de'Lo k'Rebbi Shimon ben Yochai? What does he say about a Giyores who converted before she turned three?

7)

(a)The problem with explaining ...

1. ... the Tana Kama of our Mishnah literally (that Mamzerim, Nesinim, Shesukim and Asufim are permitted to intermarry) is - that Rebbi already taught us this in the previous Mishnah.

2. ... Rebbi Yehudah with regard to the case of Vadai intermarrying with the Safek - is that he would then be saying the same as Rebbi Elazar in the Seifa (who clearly comes to argue with the previous Tana'im, not to mimick them).

(b)Neither can Rebbi Yehudah be referring to a Ger marrying a Mamzeres (which we already know he forbids) - because we are talking about those who are Pasul to enter the Kahal, which does not incorporate Gerim.

(c)To explain Rebbi Yehudah, we attempt to interpret 'Kol ha'Asurim Lavo b'Kahal' - to mean 'Kol ha'Asurim Lavo bi'Kehal Kehunah', which does incorporate Gerim (since a Kohen is forbidden to marry a Giyores [even if she converted before she turned three]).

(d)When we say 'de'Lo k'Rebbi Shimon ben Yochai', we are referring to his ruling - that a Giyores who is less than three years old is permitted to marry a Kohen, since she is a bas Bi'ah, because her Besulim returns. Consequently, she does not have the Din of a Zonah.

74b----------------------------------------74b

8)

(a)What makes us try to establish our Mishnah even by a Giyores who converted before she turned three (not like Rebbi Shimon)? Why can the Tana not be speaking specifically about a Giyores who converted after she turned three (like Rebbi Shimon)?

(b)How do we know that our Tana holds 'K'hal Gerim Lo Ikri Kahal'? Maybe he holds "Ikri Kahal'?

(c)We refute the current proposal from two angles. Whom do we know to be ...

1. ... forbidden to marry a Kohen, yet they are also forbidden to marry a Mamzer?

2. ... permitted to marry a Kohen, yet they are permitted to marry a Mamzeres?

8)

(a)What makes us try to establish our Mishnah even by a Giyores who converted before she turned three, not like Rebbi Shimon - is the fact that the alternative would force us to infer that a Giyores who converted before she was three, and who was permitted to marry a Kohen, was forbidden to marry a Mamzeres. But that cannot be, because Rebbi Shimon himself permits her to marry a Giyores (because he holds 'K'hal Gerim Lo Ikri Kahal).

(b)And we know that our Tana too holds 'K'hal Gerim Lo Ikri Kahal' - because otherwise, on what basis would he permit a Giyores who converted after she turned three to marry a Mamzer.

(c)We refute the current proposal from two angles. We know that ...

1. ... all Pesulei Kehunah (Almanah, Gerushah ...) are forbidden to marry a Kohen, yet they are also forbidden to marry a Mamzer.

2. ... Gerim are permitted to marry a bas Kohen, yet they are also permitted to marry a Mamzeres?

9)

(a)Rav Nasan bar Hoshaya then attempts to interpret the Tana Kama like Rebbi Eliezer ben Yakov, and what the Tana means is 'Kol she'Kohen Asur Lisa Es Bito, Mutarin Zeh ba'Zeh'. To which case is he referring?

(b)He says specifically a Ger whose daughter would be forbidden were he to marry a Giyores (like Rebbi Eliezer ben Yakov). Why does he not refer even to a Ger who married a Yisre'elis, whose daughter is forbidden to marry a Kohen, too? Who would then have to be the author of the Reisha, and what would be the problem?

(c)How do we reconcile this interpretation of the principle 'Kol ha'Asurin ... ' with the case of a Chalal who married a bas Yisrael, whose daughter is forbidden to marry a Kohen, yet she is forbidden to marry a Mamzeres?

(d)Here again, we refute this proposal from two different angles. Whom do we know whose daughter is ...

1. ... forbidden to marry a Kohen, yet he is also forbidden to marry a Mamzer?

2. ... permitted to marry a Kohen, yet he is also permitted to marry a Mamzeres?

9)

(a)Rav Nasan bar Hoshaya then attempts to interpret the Tana Kama like Rebbi Eliezer ben Yakov, and what the Tana means is 'Kol she'Kohen Asur Lisa Es Bito, Mutarin Zeh ba'Zeh' - referring to a Ger, whose daughter would be forbidden to marry a Kohenes (were he to marry a Giyores).

(b)He says specifically a Ger whose daughter would be forbidden were he to marry a Giyores (like Rebbi Eliezer ben Yakov). He does not refer even to a Ger who married a Yisre'elis, because it is only according to Rebbi Yehudah that his daughter would also be forbidden to marry a Kohen (as we shall see later), and since Rebbi Yehudah is the author of the Seifa, he cannot also be the author of the Reisha.

(c)We reconcile this interpretation of the principle 'Kol ha'Asurin ... ' with the case of a Chalal who married a bas Yisrael, whose daughter is forbidden to marry a Kohen, yet she is forbidden to marry a Mamzeres - by establishing our Mishnah like Rebbi Dustai ben Yehudah, who holds 'Benos Yisrael Mikvah Taharah l'Chalalin' (and according to whom therefore, the daughter of a Chalal who married a bas Yisrael may marry a Kohen).

(d)Here again, we refute this proposal from two different angles. We know that ...

1. ... a Chalal who married a Chalalah is forbidden to marry a Kohen, yet he is also forbidden to marry a Mamzer?

2. ... a Ger who married a bas Yisrael, whose daughter is permitted to marry a Kohen, yet he is also permitted to marry a Mamzeres.

10)

(a)Rav Nachman Amar Rabah bar Avuhah then attempts to establish (the Machlokes between the Tana Kama and Rebbi Yehudah in) our Mishnah by a 'Mamzer me'Achoso, u'Mamzer me'Eshes Ish'. What does this mean? What is the basis of the Machlokes Tana'im?

(b)We refute this explanation too, based on a Mishnah in Yevamos, where Rebbi Akiva declares the product of anyone who has transgressed "Lo Yavo" (i.e. any of the Chayavei Lavin) a Mamzer. What do Shimon ha'Teimani and Rebbi Yehoshua respectively say?

(c)What grounds is this to refute Rav Nachman Amar Rabah bar Avuhah's interpretation of our Mishnah?

10)

(a)Rav Nachman Amar Rabah bar Avuhah then attempts to establish (the Machlokes between the Tana Kama and Rebbi Yehudah in) our Mishnah by a 'Mamzer me'Achoso, u'Mamzer me'Eshes Ish' - meaning that our Mishnah refers to a case of someone who marries his sister (Chayavei Kerisus); the Tana Kama holds that the child is a Mamzer (and may therefore marry a Mamzeres or any of the Pesulim), whereas according to Rebbi Yehudah, it is only the child of a man who committed adultery with a married woman (whose parents transgressed a Chiyuv Miysas Beis-Din) who is a Mamzer (but not the child born to Chayavei Kerisus).

(b)We refute this explanation too, based of a Mishnah in Yevamos, where Rebbi Akiva declares the product of anyone who has transgressed "Lo Yavo" (i.e. Al Chayavei Lavin) a Mamzer. Shimon ha'Teimani holds - 'Yesh Mamzer me'Chayavei Kerisus;, and Rebbi Yehoshua - 'Kol she'Chayavin Alav Miysas Beis-Din'.

(c)This refutes Rav Nachman Amar Rabah bar Avuhah's interpretation of our Mishnah - according to which the Tana Kama and Rebbi Yehudah would merely be reiterating the Machlokes of Shimon ha'Teimani and Rebbi Yehoshua.

11)

(a)So Rava finally establishes our Mishnah by a Ger Amoni u'Mo'avi. What is then the Tana coming to teach us?

(b)And what does the Tana mean when he writes 've'Rebbi Yehudah Oser'? In which point does Rebbi Yehudah argue with the Tana Kama?

11)

(a)So Rava finally establishes our Mishnah by a Ger Amoni u'Mo'avi, and the Tana is coming to teach us - that even though a regular Ger is forbidden to marry a Mamzeres, a Ger Amoni u'Mo'avi (who are Pasul from marrying into the Kahal), may.

(b)And when he writes 've'Rebbi Yehudah Oser' - he is (not stating a second opinion, but is) merely pointing out that the author of the Reisha is Rebbi Yehudah (because he is the one who forbids a Ger to marry a Mamzeres, due to the fact that he holds 'K'hal Gerim Ikri Kahal').

12)

(a)The Beraisa disqualifies a Kohenes, a Leviyah and a Yisre'elis from the Kehunah through the Bi'ah of a Ger Amoni, Mo'avi, Mitzri, Nasin, Chalal or Mamzer. How old must the 'man' be for his Bi'ah to achieve this?

(b)Rebbi Yosi says 'Kol she'Zar'o Pasul, Posel ... ' (if his children disqualify, so too, does he). What does Raban Shimon ben Gamliel say?

12)

(a)The Beraisa disqualifies a Kohenes, a Leviyah and a Yisre'elis from the Kehunah through the Bi'ah of a Ger Amoni, Mo'avi, Mitzri, Nasin, Chalal or Mamzer - who are at least nine years old (since the Bi'ah of a boy below that age is not considered a Bi'ah).

(b)Rebbi Yosi says 'Kol she'Zar'o Pasul, Posel ... ' (If his children disqualify, so too, does he). Raban Shimon ben Gamliel says - 'Kol she'Atah Nosei Bito, Atah Nosei Almenaso ... ' (If one may marry his daughter, one may also marry his widow [all these opinions will be explained immediately]).

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