It is interesting here that there are two cases of shaking at the time of the bracha, but it does not say that this is an actual halacha just because two amoraim did it, as compared with the point. Some point out that the practice of shaking at the time of the bracha is because people who didn't have the lulav couldn't shake during Hallel. About the Rosh, it could simply mean that the child shakes it at the bracha for chinuch because he would not have the lulav during Hallel, which is when it is supposed to be shaken. And if one travels of course one shakes it right away because he won't have the lulav for Hallel later which is the proper time of shaking.
Thanks.
David Goldman, USA
Dear David,
Shulchan Aruch Orach Chaim 651:8 reads: Shake at the time of the Bracha and also during Hallel. The case of the Katan is a proof to this since the Gemara determines a Katan to be fit for a Mitzva if he can perform what is necessary! If shaking at the time of the Bracha is not required (only later at Hallel) this would not determine the age of the Katan (see Suka 42a).
Also the traveler who leaves early is brought a Shofar and blows, a Megila and reads, a Lulav and shakes, etc. This also proves that shaking is required like blowing the Shofar and not because he might not have a Lulav at Hallel.
All the best,
Reuven Weiner
Thank you. In each case the situation could be somewhat different in traveling. One has a chiyuv to hear shofar, but it doesn't matter WHEN it is blown. Same could be said about megillah. But in the case of lulav, if a person would not have one available at the time of Hallel, then it makes sense he would shake it right away. And the katan who is capable of understanding the lulav could shake in Hallel if he had one. But certainly at the time of taking it al netilas lulav in the event he didn't have his own during Hallel. That is why some argue we do it twice, because of the lack of lulavs for everyone.
On the other hand, why does the Yerushalmi say there was a bracha "al asiyas lulav" on EREV Sukkos when putting it together, when there is no mitzvah of having the arba minim before yomtov? The Bavli says shehechiyanu instead on Erev Sukkos.
Dear David,
Please bring your source that shaking at the Bracha is only not to miss the shaking at Hallel.
The Bi'ur haGra of the Vilna Gaon proves from Katan and the traveler that shaking at the Bracha is part of the basic Mitzva. You attempt to explain otherwise but the way the Gemara quotes these cases and the context is not according to your suggestion.
The Bracha Al Asiyas Lulav is an opinion that is not according to Halacha- but that opinion holds that preparing the Mitzva requires a Bracha and that can be said even before the Chag.
All the best,
Reuven Weiner