More Discussions for this daf
1. Erusin and Nisu'in 2. Kal V'Chomer With Shifchah Kena'anis 3. Ben Bagbag & Reb Yehudah Ben beseirah
4. 10B "Simpon" & Derabanan
DAF DISCUSSIONS - KIDUSHIN 10

Avrahom asks:

Why would shifcha Canaanite be used at all.

AMA Ivriah koneh b'keseph not biah

Eved Zachar Jew Ben 6 years or lolam neither ever eats terumah

Eved Canaanite zachar Keseph is maachal terumah.

If I free a shifcha or any giyores can't marry a kohen or eat terumah... but when she's property and a shikseh like a Kohen's animals eat terumah.

Bottom line how can you even derive laws by a Canaanite to a kiddushin Bas Yisrael!

Avrahom , USA

The Kollel replies:

Reb Yehudah Ben Beseirah was discussing a fully Jewish girl who we wanted to say does Nisuin through Biah. It is obvious to us that a Jewess does Nisuin, or at least Eirusin, through Biah, but the question in the Gemara is does she eat Terumah through Biah? We can use Shifchah Canaanite to solve that dilemma since the Shifchah eats Terumah, so the Jewess should certainly eat Terumah.

Yasher Koach

Dovid Bloom

I think your question is asked by the Pnei Yehoshua!

It seems to me that what you asked in the last 2 lines of your question is asked by Pnei Yehoshua. You asked that the shifchah is his property so how can you derive laws by a Canaanite to a kidushin bas Yisrael?

1) This is asked by the Pnei Yehoshua who wrote that one can ask on the Kal veChomer of Reb Yehudah ben Beseira that there is a "pirchah"; namely that the reason why the money given to buy the Shifchah allows her to eat Terumah is specifically because the master owns the body of the shifchah, but a Bas Yisrael's body is not owned by her husband?!

2) Pnei Yehoshua answers on the basis of what Tosfos DH uMah writes that the Kal veChomer is not really a Kal veChomer but is a "Giluy Milsa beAlma"; it merely reveals to us what is called a Kinyan Kaspo. It teaches us that an Arusa is also considered as being acquired by his money, just like a Shifchah is acquired by his money. Even though the husband does not own the body of the Bas Yisroel like he owns the body of the Shifchah but he still does possess a Kinyan in his wife; namely a Kinyan Ishus that she is not alloed to marry anyone else. That kinyan is sufficient to call the Bas Yisrael "kinyan kaspo".

3) Pnei Yehoshua proves this from the Gemara above 5a where Ulla said that Mideoraisa, with Kidushin (i.e. Eirusin) alone a Bas Yisrael may eat Terumah because the Torah says that any kinyan kaspo of the Kohen may eat Terumah and the money given to the Bas Yisrael makes her kinayn kaspo for Terumah also. So this answers your question that the shifchah is his property but the Bas Yisrael is not? The answer is that he does not have to own her body in order for her to be able to eat Terumah. It is sufficient that he possesses a kinyan in her, even if this is a "kinyan ishus"; she is not allowed to marry anyone else because she is married to him.

KOL TUV

Dovid Bloom

Reply about Ama Ivriah and Jewish Eved Zachar, who works until Yovel year:

1) Avraham, you write about Ama Ivriah. However, I do not think that Ama Ivriah is ever mentioned in this sugya. In this sugya it is only the 2 extremes that are mentioned; Shifchah Canaanite and Arusah Bas Yisrael. Amah Ivriah is somewhere in the middle between those 2 extremes. However Amah Ivriah should be equivalent to Shifchah as far as this sugya goes, because the discussion here concerns whether she can eat Terumah, and in this respect Ama Ivriah should be simpler than Arusah bas Yisrael ( who the Gemara wants to say, at the moment, might be acquired by Biah if we say that Biah effects Eirusin) since Ama Ivriah is acquired by money so she will be exactly the same as Shifchah Canaanite who is acquired by money and therefore eats Terumah.

2) The question about the Jewish male Eved; who works for 6 years or pierces his ear and works till the Jubilee Year (see Gemara below 22b that when the Torah says he works l'olam it not does not literaly mean forever, but it means to the Olam of the Yovel year); is an interesting paradox. Why is it that an Eved, who loves his master's household and might live there for almost 50 years, does not eat Terumah; whilst an Arusah, who is not yet fully married to the Kohen and is still living in her father's house, does eat Terumah according to Torah law?! I found that the Malbim on Bamidbar 18:13 and Rav Elazar Menachem Shach zt'l. in Avi Ezri on Rambam Hilchos Avodim 2:11 end DH veAdayin, ask this question. However I am going to offer my personal slant on it. Rashi here 10b DH Zu She-Niseis writes that Bamidbar 18:11 "Any pure person in your house may eat it" teaches that after Nisuin she may eat, and the Sifri on Bamidbar 18:13 states that 18:13, which is almost identical to 18:11; with the difference that it ends "Yochalenu" instead of "Yochal Oso"; teaches that an Arusah also eats. In contrast Rashi Kidushin 4a DH Zeh Konuy writes that a Jewish Eved, even though he is acquired for up to 50 years, does not eat. Rashi writes that the reason is because his body is not owned by his master. But the obvious question is that the body of the Jewish wife also does not belong to her husband, so why does she eat Terumah?!

I want to suggest that it depends on what the verse says "Any pure person in his house may eat Terumah". The wife is a pure person, but the Jewish Eved is not. This is because the Gemara Kidushin 22b says that the Eved heard on Har Sinai that Hash-m said that we are his servants. Hash-m wants us to be his servants, not servants of his serrvants. This Eved decided to be an Eved of another Jew, who in turn is an Eved of Hash-m. Hash-m does not want that. That Eved can no longer be called pure, and that is why he does not eat Terumah.

Dovid Bloom