(Rav Yosef citing Rav): If one eats it, he is lashed.

A Talmid: No. Rav holds that one who eats it is not lashed.

Rav Huna: On whom should we rely?

Rav Yosef: Rav said both (in different cases)!

If the animal died (without Shechitah), the limb is Ever Min ha'Chai. One is lashed for eating it;

If the animal was slaughtered, the limb is forbidden only mid'Rabanan.

Question (Rava): What is the source that death makes Nipul, but Shechitah does not make Nipul?

Answer - Question: "Anything that they (Sheratzim) will fall on b'Mosam, it will become Tamei" - what does this come to exclude?

If need not exclude when they are alive. Nevelah already excludes this!

Answer: Rather, it teaches that death makes Nipul, but Shechitah does not make Nipul.

Question (Rav Ada bar Ahavah): That verse refers to Sheratzim, and not to animals!

Answer (Rava): Shechitah does not apply to Sheratzim. Therefore, we use the verse to teach about animals.

Question: We need this verse to teach that Sheratzim are Metamei only when they are moist!

Answer: It says "b'Mosam" twice.

(Rav Chisda): R. Meir and Chachamim argue about the limb of a live fetus, but all agree that if a limb of a dead fetus left the womb, Shechitah of the mother is not Metaher.

(Rabah): They argue in both cases.

(Mishnah): A living Ben Shmoneh (he was born in the eighth month of pregnancy, i.e. a Nefel)... (Shechitah does not apply to this category of animals).

Contradiction (Beraisa): Even though Shechitah applies to (all Tahor animals, which includes) a Ben Shmoneh, it becomes Nevelah even if it is slaughtered.

Answer (Rav Kahana): That Tana says that Shechitah applies to a Ben Shmoneh, because Shechitah of the mother permits a Ben Shmoneh inside;

The Tana of our Mishnah does not consider this grounds to say that Shechitah applies to a Ben Shmoneh.

Question: How does the Tana of the Beraisa know that a slaughtered Terefah is not a Nevelah? (It is not enough that Shechitah applies to Terefah animals, just like he holds that it is not enough that Shechitah applies to a Ben Shmoneh in its mother.)

Answer (Rav Yehudah, and also a Beraisa): "When will die from an animal (... the Nevelah)" teaches that some animals become Nevelah when they die, and others do not;

A slaughtered Terefah does not become Nevelah.

Question (R. Hoshaya): If one slaughtered a fetus inside the womb, what is the law?

We can ask according to both R. Meir and Chachamim.

R. Meir requires slaughtering a Ben Peku'ah (a fetus inside a slaughtered mother, for it is not permitted through Shechitah of its mother) only when it left the mother. He could hold that Shechitah does not apply to it before it leaves the womb;

Chachamim permit a Ben Peku'ah through Shechitah of the mother. They could hold that alternatively, it can be permitted through its own Shechitah in the womb!

Answer (R. Chananya - Mishnah): An animal that was Terefah from (when it left) the womb (never had a potential Heter)...

If Shechitah of a fetus in the womb permits, it could have been permitted before it became Terefah!

Rejection (Rava): The Mishnah should say 'an animal that was Terefah from when it was formed in the womb.'

If the animal has an extra hind leg, we would know that it was Terefah from its formation.

(Mishnah): If one slaughters an animal and finds inside a Ben Shmoneh (eight month fetus, i.e. a Nefel), dead or alive, or a dead Ben Tesha (a nine-month (viable) fetus), the fetus may be eaten without Shechitah, just its blood must be removed;

R. Meir says, if a live Ben Tesha is inside, it must be slaughtered. The Isur of slaughtering a mother and her child on the same day applies to the child;

Chachamim say, Shechitah of the mother is Metaher (permits) the child;

R. Shimon Shezuri says, even if the child is five years old and plowing in the field, Shechitah of the mother was Metaher it.

If one tore open the mother and found a live Ben Tesha in it, the fetus must be slaughtered, for its mother was not slaughtered.

(Gemara - R. Elazar): Chachamim were lenient about a Ben Peku'ah only regarding Shechitah.

Question: What does he exclude?

Answer #1: He excludes its Chelev and Gid ha'Nasheh.

Version #1 (Rashi) Rejection: They argue also about those, and Chachamim are lenient!

(Beraisa - R. Meir): The Gid ha'Nasheh and Chelev of a fetus are forbidden;

R. Yehudah permits them.

(R. Elazar): They argue about a live Ben Tesha, just like they argue about Shechitah (whether a Ben Peku'ah is considered a live animal or permitted meat).

Version #2 (Tosfos) Question: Which Chelev does he exclude?

He cannot exclude Chelev of the fetus. They argue about those, and Chachamim are lenient!

(Beraisa - R. Meir): The Gid ha'Nasheh and Chelev of a fetus are forbidden;

R. Yehudah permits them.

(R. Elazar): They argue about a live Ben Tesha, just like they argue about Shechitah.

Answer: Rather, R. Elazar meant that R. Meir is stringent only about Shechitah, but he permits the Chelev of the Gid ha'Nasheh.

Rejection: R. Meir forbids it!

(Beraisa - R. Meir): One must dig out all the all the fat around the Gid ha'Nasheh;

R. Yehudah says, it suffices to remove what is above the surface. (end of Version #2)

Answer #2: Rather, R. Elazar meant that Chachamim are lenient only about matters relating to eating, but they forbid bestiality with the calf, or making it work with a different species.

(Reish Lakish): R. Yehudah, who permits its Chelev, permits also its blood. R. Meir, who forbids its Chelev, forbids also its blood;

(R. Yochanan): All agree that the blood is forbidden.

Question (against Reish Lakish - Mishnah): One tears the fetus and extracts the blood. (No one argues. All forbid the blood!)

Answer (R. Zeira): Reish Lakish meant only that one is not Chayav Kares for eating the blood. He agrees that it is forbidden.

Objection: Reish Lakish said this according to R. Yehudah. R. Yehudah holds that one is Chayav Kares for eating Dam Tamtzis (blood that drains out after the initial spurt of blood when an animal dies). Blood of a fetus should not be more lenient!

(Beraisa): If one eats Dam Tamtzis he transgresses a Lav;

R. Yehudah says, he is Chayav Kares.

Answer (Rav Yosef brei d'Rav Sala Chasida): R. Yehudah learns from "blood... all blood" that there is Kares for Dam Tamtzis only if there is Kares for he animal's Dam ha'Nefesh (the blood that exudes when it dies).

Question: Can a Ben Peku'ah be used for a Seh (sheep or goat) to redeem a firstborn donkey?

According to R. Meir, clearly it can. Since it must be slaughtered, it is a fully fledged Seh.

According to Chachamim, do we say that since it became permitted through its mother's Shechitah, it is called meat (and not a Seh);

Or, since it runs around, it is called a Seh?

Answer #1 (Mar Zutra): It cannot be used.

Answer #2 (Rav Ashi): It can be used.

Question (Rav Ashi to Mar Zutra): Do you learn from a Gezeirah Shavah Seh-Seh from the Korban Pesach (for which a Ben Peku'ah is invalid)?

If so, you should require all the qualifications for the Korban Pesach, i.e. an unblemished male in its first year!

Answer: The Torah says twice "you will redeem." The repetition is Machshir even a Seh lacking qualifications for Pesach.

Question: If so, we should allow also a Ben Peku'ah!

Answer: This cannot be, for then the Gezeirah Shavah would not teach anything.