NEDARIM 4 (10 Sivan) - Today's study material has been dedicated by Mrs. Rita Grunberger of Queens, N.Y., in loving memory of her husband, Reb Yitzchok Yakov (Irving) ben Eliyahu Grunberger. Irving Grunberger helped many people quietly in an unassuming manner and is dearly missed by all who knew him. His Yahrzeit is 10 Sivan.
12TH CYCLE DEDICATION
NEDARIM 2-5 - Two weeks of study material have been dedicated by Mrs. Estanne Abraham Fawer to honor the eighth Yahrzeit of her father, Rav Mordechai ben Eliezer Zvi (Rabbi Morton Weiner) Z'L, who passed away on 18 Teves 5760. May the merit of supporting and advancing Dafyomi study -- which was so important to him -- during the weeks of his Yahrzeit serve as an Iluy for his Neshamah.

1)

(a)Rav Acha bar Yakov establishes 'bal Te'acher' with regard to Nezirus by someone who undertook to become a Nazir whilst standing in a graveyard. How will 'bal Te'acher' then apply?

(b)This answer goes well with the opinion of Resh Lakish (who holds that the Nezirus cannot take effect under such circumstances), but not with that of Rebbi Yochanan. What does Rebbi Yochanan say?

(c)According to Mar bar Rav Ashi, even Resh Lakish concedes that the Nezirus begins immediately. Then in which point does he argue with Rebbi Yochanan?

1)

(a)Rav Acha bar Yakov establishes 'bal Te'acher' with regard to Nezirus by someone who undertook to become a Nazir whilst standing in a graveyard, in which case 'bal Te'acher' will apply - the moment he fails to leave the graveyard, purify himself and accept his Nezirus from afresh.

(b)This answer goes well with the opinion of Resh Lakish (who holds that the Nezirus cannot take effect under such circumstances), but not with that of Rebbi Yochanan - in whose opinion Nezirus accepted in a graveyard is immediately effective (and he will receive Malkus should he eat grapes or drink wine there).

(c)According to Mar bar Rav Ashi, even Resh Lakish concedes that the Nezirus begins immediately - only according to him, the Nazir does not receive Malkus for contravening his Nezirus, whereas according to Rebbi Yochanan, he does.

2)

(a)How do we then establish Rav Acha bar Yakov's answer?

(b)What does Rav Ashi extrapolate from Rav Acha bar Yakov with regard to a Nazir who deliberately rendered himself Tamei?

(c)How many sets of Malkus will he now receive?

2)

(a)We establish Rav Acha bar Yakov's answer - by amending our initial statement to: although the Nezirus is effective immediately, he transgresses 'bal Te'acher' for failing to take the necessary steps to bring into effect Nezirus b'Taharah.

(b)Rav Ashi extrapolates from Rav Acha bar Yakov that a Nazir who deliberately rendered himself Tamei - transgresses 'bal Te'acher'.

(c)Consequently, he will receive three sets of Malkus - two for contravening "Lo Yitama" and "v'Al Kol Nafshos Mes Lo Yavo" and one for 'bal Te'acher'.

3)

(a)Rav Acha Brei d'Rav Ika establishes 'bal Te'acher' with regard to the Mitzvah of Tiglachas (shaving, which the Nazir had to do after he had brought all his Korbanos). This goes well with the opinion of Rebbi Elazar, who forbids a Nazir to drink wine until he has shaven. What will be the Din according to the Rabanan, who permit him to drink wine immediately after bringing his Korbanos?

(b)Mar Zutra Brei d'Rav Mari establishes the 'bal Te'acher' of Nezirus - with regard to the Korbanos of a Nazir. When will he transgress, according to him?

(c)What do we learn regarding 'bal Te'acher' from the Pasuk in Ki Setzei "Ki Darosh Yidreshenu"?

(d)Then why, according to Mar Zutra Brei d'Rav Mari, do we need to learn bal Te'acher by the Chatas of Nazir from "Nazir Lahazir"?

3)

(a)Rav Acha Brei d'Rav Ika establishes 'bal Te'acher' with regard to the Mitzvah of Tiglachas (shaving, which the Nazir had to do after he had brought all his Korbanos), not only according to Rebbi Elazar, who forbids a Nazir to drink wine until he has shaven - but even according to the Rabanan, who permit him to drink wine immediately after bringing his Korbanos.

(b)Mar Zutra Brei d'Rav Mari establishes the 'bal Te'acher' of Nezirus with regard to the Korbanos of a Nazir, in which case - he will only transgress after three Regalim.

(c)We learn from the Pasuk "Ki Darosh Yidreshenu" - that Chata'os and Ashamos are subject to the laws of 'bal Te'achar'.

(d)Nevertheless, according to Mar Zutra Brei d'Rav Mari, we need "Nazir Lahazir" to include the Chatas of Nazir in 'bal Te'acher' - because Nazir has a Chidush which might render it different than other areas of Korbanos (as we shall now see).

4)

(a)Why can the Chidush of Nazir not be that ...

1. ... one cannot donate a Chatas Nazir unless one is actually a Nazir?

2. ... someone who undertakes Nezirus only as far as eating grapes is concerned, becomes a Nazir in all regards (besides the fact that this is not a unanimous opinion [Rebbi Shimon in fact, argues])?

(b)So what is the (lenient) Chidush that causes the Chatas Nazir to require its own Derashah for 'bal Te'acher'?

4)

(a)The Chidush of Nazir cannot be that ...

1. ... a Chatas Nazir cannot be donated (only a Nazir can actually bring it) - because neither can a Chatas Chelev, (seeing as only someone who actually sinned can bring it).

2. ... someone who undertakes Nezirus only as far as eating grapes is concerned becomes a Nazir in all regards (besides the fact that this is not a unanimous opinion [Rebbi Shimon in fact, argues]) - because that is a Chidush l'Chumra, so why should it prevent us from learning a Chumra from other Korbanos.

(b)The (lenient) Chidush that causes the Chatas of Nazir to require its own Derashah for 'bal Te'acher' is - that although a Nazir has to bring three Korbanos, he is allowed to shave off his hair already after only one of them.

4b----------------------------------------4b

5)

(a)Alternatively, we reinstate the initial answer (that one cannot donate a Chatas Nazir [and that is why we would not have known the Din of 'bal Te'acher from a regular Chatas]). How do we now dispense with the Kashya that one cannot donate a Chatas Chelev either?

(b)How will this conform with Rebbi Elazar ha'Kapar, in whose opinion a Nazir has sinned too, by abstaining from those things that the Torah permits, in which case his Chatas too, comes as a Kaparah?

(c)Why can we not learn 'bal Te'acher' by a Nazir from a 'Mah ha'Tzad' of Chatas Chelev and Shelamim?

5)

(a)Alternatively, we reinstate the initial answer (that one cannot volunteer a Chatas Nazir [and that is why we would not have known the Din of 'bal Te'acher from a regular Chatas]). True, one cannot donate a Chatas Chelev either - but whereas a Chatas Chelev comes to atone, a Chatas Nazir does not.

(b)This conforms even with Rebbi Elazar ha'Kapar, in whose opinion a Nazir has sinned too (by abstaining from those things that the Torah permits) - because that is not the real reason that he brings his Korban. Even according to him, that is only a Drush, and officially, the Korban does not come as a Kaparah.

(c)We can in fact - learn 'bal Te'acher' by a Nazir from a 'Mah ha'Tzad' from Chatas Chelev and Shelamim. Only we prefer to learn it from a Pasuk, because a Mah ha'Tzad can be refuted with any form of Kashya.

6)

(a)So we try to learn it from a Chatas Yoledes, which is not brought as a Kaparah, and yet is subject to 'bal Te'acher'. Will this go even like Rebbi Shimon, in whose opinion a Yoledes brings a Chatas because she sinned, by swearing that she would have no more children?

(b)In what way is a Chatas Yoledes, which is also subject to 'bal Te'acher', different, even though it too, cannot be donated?

(c)In that case, what makes the Chatas Yoledes different that the Chatas Nazir, seeing as the latter too, permits the Nazir to drink wine?

6)

(a)So we try to learn it from a Chatas Yoledes, which is not brought as a Kaparah, yet it is subject to 'bal Te'acher'. This will go even like Rebbi Shimon, in whose opinion a Yoledes brings a Chatas because she sinned, by swearing that she would have no more children - because that is not the real reason that she brings the Chatas (proof of this lies in the fact that she is obligated to bring the Chatas, even if no such oath ever passed her lips).

(b)A Chatas Yoledes, which is also subject to 'bal Te'acher' (even though it too cannot be donated) - is different again inasmuch as it permits the Yoledes to eat Kodshim.

(c)Her Chatas is different than that of a Nazir - inasmuch as eating Kodshim is a Mitzvah, whereas drinking wine is not.

7)

(a)The Tana also learned from the Hekesh (between Nezirus and Neder) that a father can annul his daughter's Nedarim and a husband, his wife's. Why does the Torah need a special Hekesh? Why can we not simply learn it from a 'Mah Matzinu'?

(b)Why did we not ask this Kashya above, with regard to learning Yados from the Hekesh?

(c)Why can we not learn from the Hekesh that the principle 'Stam Nezirus Sheloshim Yom' extends to Nedarim, too?

7)

(a)The Tana also learned from the Hekesh (between Nezirus and Neder) that a father can annul his daughter's Nedarim and a husband, his wife's. The Torah did not rely on a 'Mah Matzinu' alone - because that we could refute by pointing out that a Neder is different because there is no time-limit (which is perhaps why the Torah adds a Lav of 'bal Te'acher', whereas Nezirus normally lasts only thirty days.

(b)We did not ask this Kashya above, with regard to learning Yados from the Hekesh - because there, since it involves a regular Lav, we require the Hekesh for Malkus (which, due to the principle 'Ein Onshim min ha'Din' one would not receive from a 'Mah Matzinu').

(c)We cannot learn from the Hekesh that the principle 'Stam Nezirus Sheloshim Yom' should extend to Nedarim - because, bearing in mind that one area of Nedarim comprises Nidrei Hekdesh, which cannot be confined to any time period (since how can Hekdesh just disappear), we prefer to learn Nidrei Isur from Nidrei Hekdesh (l'Chumra) that from Nezirus (l'Kula).

8)

(a)In defining Yados, the Tana of our Mishnah writes 'Mudrani Mimcha, Mufreshani Mimcha, Meruchkani Mimcha she'Ani Ochel Lach she'Ani To'em Lach, Asur'. What does Shmuel mean when he says 'be'Chulan, ad she'Yomar she'Ani Ochel Lach, she'Ani To'em Lach'?

(b)What do we think the Din would then be if one were to say 'Mudrani Mimcha' or 'Mufreshani Mimcha' or 'Meruchkani Mimcha' on its own?

(c)Then what is the problem with the Beraisa 'Mudar Ani Mimcha, Mufreshani Mimcha, Meruchkani Mimcha, Harei Zeh Asur; she'Ani Ochel Lach she'Ani To'em Lach, Harei Zeh Asur'? Why is this Kashya justified on the Beraisa more than on the Mishnah?

(d)How do we initially resolve the Kashya?

8)

(a)In defining Yados, the Tana of our Mishnah writes 'Mudrani Mimcha, Mufreshani Mimcha, Meruchkani Mimcha, she'Ani Ochel Lach she'Ani To'em Lach, Asur'. When Shmuel says 'be'Chulan, ad she'Yomar she'Ani Ochel Lach, she'Ani To'em Lach' - he means to say that these last two are not two additional cases of Yad, but must be added to 'Mudrani Mimcha, Mufreshani Mimcha, Meruchkani Mimcha' ('Mudrani Mimcha she'Ani Ochel Lach' or 'Mudrani Mimcha she'Ani To'em Lach' ... ).

(b)We currently think that if one were to say 'Mudrani Mimcha' or 'Mufreshani Mimcha' or 'Meruchkani Mimcha' on its own - the Neder would not be effective (because it would be a Yad she'Eino Mochi'ach [a Yad which is vague]).

(c)The problem with the Beraisa 'Mudar Ani Mimcha, Mufreshani Mimcha, Meruchkani Mimcha, Harei Zeh Asur; she'Ani Ochel Lach she'Ani To'em Lach, Harei Zeh Asur' lies in the fact - that the Tana repeats 'Harei Zeh Asur' by each group (which it does not do in our Mishnah), suggesting that they are two cases and not one (as Shmuel contends).

(d)We initially resolve the Kashya - by explaining the Tana as if he had said in the middle 'Bameh Devarim Amurim, b'Omer she'Ani Ochel Lach, she'Ani To'em Lach' (though this does not really explain 'Harei Zeh Asur' in the Seifa - which we will ask shortly).

9)

(a)And how do we explain the second Beraisa, which inverts the order 'she'Ani Ochel Lach she'Ani To'em Lach, Harei Zeh Asur; Mudrani Mimcha, Mufreshani Mimcha, Meruchkani Mimcha, Harei Zeh Asur'?

(b)Besides the fact that both Beraisos are teaching us the same thing, what is the problem with this explanation?

(c)How would we explain the second Beraisa without any problem, were it not for Shmuel?

9)

(a)We explain the second Beraisa, which inverts the order 'she'Ani Ochel Lach she'Ani To'em Lach, Harei Zeh Asur; Mudrani Mimcha Mufreshani Mimcha, Meruchkani Mimcha Harei Zeh Asur' - as if the Tana had said in the middle 'u'K'var Amar Mudrani ... '.

(b)Besides the fact that both Beraisos are teaching us the same thing, the problem with this explanation is - why does the Tana need to add 'Harei Zeh Asur' in the Seifa, as we pointed out earlier.

(c)Were it not for Shmuel - we would explain that each statement is a separate Neder on its own, and the Tana in the second Beraisa adds the cases of 'Mudrani, Mufreshani and Meruchkani', to preclude Shmuel, who learns the first Beraisa all as one case).

10)

(a)So we conclude that Shmuel holds like Rebbi Yosi b'Rebbi Chanina. How do we initially interpret Rebbi Yosi b'Rebbi Chanina regarding someone who says 'Mufreshani Heimech' (or one of the other two Leshonos)? What is his reason?

(b)How does Shmuel now explain the Beraisos?

(c)So what makes Shmuel establish our Mishnah as one case (when the Noder said them both) and not individually, like in the Beraisa?

10)

(a)So we conclude that Shmuel holds like Rebbi Yosi b'Rebbi Chanina - who, we initially contend, says that if someone declares 'Mufreshani Heimech' (or one of the other two Leshonos), it is a Yad l'Neder (even without 'she'Ochel Lach' ... , because 'Mudrani Mimcha' implies 'Mudar Ani u'Nechasai Mimcha u'mi'Nechasecha'.

(b)Shmuel now explains the Beraisos like we explained them earlier not according to him: that the first Beraisa mentions each of the five cases independently, and the second Beraisa inverts the order, so that we should not make the mistake of explaining the two groups as one (like Shmuel did earlier).

(c)What makes Shmuel establish our Mishnah as one case (and not individually like the Beraisa) - is the fact that, unlike the Tana of the Beraisa, the Tana mentions Asur only once, suggesting that 'Mudrani Mimcha', 'Mufreshani Mimcha' and 'Meruchkani Mimcha' on the one hand, and 'she'Ani Ochel Lach' and 'she'Ani To'em Lach' on the other, both have the same Din. This is in fact not true, because whereas in the second group, the Neder works only one way (the one who expressed the Neder is forbidden from his friend, but not vice-versa), in the first group it works both ways (both are forbidden to benefit from each other - explaining by the way, why the Tana of the Beraisa divides them into two groups). That is why our Mishnah states only one case, adding 'she'Ani Ochel Lach' ... , in which case the Neder works only one way.

11)

(a)We asked on Shmuel, thinking that the Tana of our Mishnah separated 'Mudrani Mimcha' and 'she'Ani Ochel Lach' into two Nedarim. What is the problem with the suggestion that 'she'Ani Ochel Lach' should be a Yad l'Neder?

(b)We establish the case when he did not, in fact, mention 'Konam'. How do we then know that he meant to forbid his friend's food on himself, and not to obligate himself to eat from the other person?

(c)That is all well and good if the wording in our Mishnah is 'she'Ani Ochel Lach'. But if the correct wording is 'she'Eini Ochel Lach', we have a problem. Which problem?

(d)We conclude that in fact, he did mention 'Konam' in his wording. What now makes it a Yad l'Neder and not a Neder itself?

11)

(a)We asked on Shmuel, thinking that the Tana of our Mishnah separated 'Mudrani Mimcha' and 'she'Ani Ochel Lach' into two Nedarim. The problem with the suggestion that 'she'Ani Ochel Lach' should be a Yad l'Neder is - that 'mi'Mah Nafshach', if he said 'Konam', it will be a Neder and not a Yad; whereas, if he did not say 'Konam', how do we know that he is making a Neder at all? Maybe he means to obligate himself to eat by his friend (which is a Shevu'ah)?

(b)We establish the case when he did not, in fact, mention 'Konam'. We know that he meant to forbid his friend's food on himself, and not to obligate himself to eat from the other person - because he used the word 'she'Ani Ochel Lach', which implies an Isur Cheftza (on the object [as it implies that any food that he will eat will be forbidden retroactively]).

(c)That is all well and good if the wording in our Mishnah is 'she'Ani Ochel Lach'. But if the correct wording is 'she'Eini Ochel Lach', we have a problem - inasmuch as 'she'Eini' does not imply an Isur Cheftza at all (so back comes the question - How do we know that he is not, in fact, making a Shevu'ah?).

(d)We conclude that, according to this text, he did in fact, mention 'Konam' in his wording, making it a Neder (and not a Shevu'ah). Only because he made an Isur Gavra (on the man) and not an Isur Cheftza, it turns the Neder into a Yad l'Neder, as we cited from the Ramban on 2b. (question 8a.).

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