ASHES OF THE INNER MIZBE'ACH AND MENORAH (cont.)
(Gemara) Question: We understand regarding (ashes of) the outer Mizbe'ach [that the Torah fixed a place for them]. We learn from "v'Samo";
However, what is the source regarding the inner Mizbe'ach?
Answer (R. Elazar): "V'Hesir Es Mur'aso b'Notzasah... (El Mekom ha'Dashen)" is not needed to teach about the (ashes of the) outer Mizbe'ach, so we use it to teach about (those of) the inner Mizbe'ach.
Question: Perhaps the verse teaches that the crop of Olas ha'Of is thrown to the place where Terumas ha'Deshen is deposited (Rashi; Tosfos - perhaps it teaches only that Terumas ha'Deshen is to the east of the Mizbe'ach)!
Answer: If so, it would have sufficed to say "Etzel ha'Mizbe'ach (Kedmah)." "(El Mekom) ha'Dashen" is extra to teach about the inner Mizbe'ach.
Question: What is the source regarding the Menorah?
Version #1 (Rashi) Answer: It could have said "Deshen". Rather, it says "ha'Dashen". The extra "Hei" teaches about the Menorah.
Version #2 (Tosfos): We learn from a Gezeirah Shavah "Deshen-ha'Dashen." (It does not say "Deshen" regarding the Menorah. However, it says "b'Heitivo Es ha'Neros." We can learn a Gezeirah Shavah between similar concepts even if the words are different.)
WHERE DID THE KEDUSHAH GO?
(Mishnah - R. Shimon): Me'ilah applies to Torim that are too young;
One may not benefit from doves that are too old. Me'ilah does not apply to them.
(Gemara) Question: We understand R. Shimon's reason, like he taught elsewhere;
(Mishnah - R. Shimon): (If one slaughters outside the Mikdash Mechusar Zeman, i.e.) any Korban valid to be offered later, he transgresses a Lav. (This shows that Mechusar Zeman has Kedushah.) There is no Kares;
Chachamim agree that Me'ilah applies to Mechusar Zeman. Why do they exempt young Torim? ("Chachamim" are the Tana of the Seifa of the previous Mishnah (11b), which is the Reisha of our Mishnah.)
Answer: Since a (Behemah) Ba'al Mum can be redeemed, it has Kedushah. Likewise, Mechusar Zeman has Kedushah, and Me'ilah applies to it;
(Minor) Mumim do not disqualify birds, and they cannot be redeemed, so Me'ilah does not apply to Mechusar Zeman of birds.
(Ula): If Kodshim died (without Shechitah), Me'ilah no longer applies to them mid'Oraisa.
Question (Rav Chisda): To where did their Kedushah vanish?!
Counter-question (Ula): How do you understand our Mishnah?
(Mishnah): One may not benefit from Torim that are too young or doves that are too old. Me'ilah does not apply to them (even though it applied to the doves when they were young).
Version #1 (our text, Tosfos) Clarification of question (Rav Chisda): I agree that Me'ilah of Kodshim that died is only mid'Rabanan.
(You say that if (any) Kodshim died, Me'ilah applies mid'Rabanan.) Do we ever find something that never had Me'ilah mid'Oraisa (Kodshim Kalim, when they were alive) that gets Me'ilah mid'Rabanan (after death)?!
Version #2 - Rashi - (Ula): (The Mishnah shows that Kedushah vanishes. However,) I agree that when Me'ilah goes away mid'Oraisa, there is Me'ilah mid'Rabanan.
Question (Ula, against Rav Chisda): (The Mishnah equates Torim and doves, Me'ilah mid'Rabanan applies to both.) Do we ever find something that never had Me'ilah mid'Oraisa (young Torim were not yet valid for Hakravah) that gets Me'ilah mid'Rabanan (when they are are enough)?!(end of Version #2)
Answer: We find this concerning blood!
(Mishnah): At first Me'ilah does not apply to blood. After it goes to Nachal Kidron, Me'ilah applies to it.
Objection: Regarding blood there is Me'ilah from the beginning!
(Rav): If one lets blood from a Kodshim animal, one may not benefit from the blood, and Me'ilah applies to it.
Question (against Rav - Rav Hamnuna - Mishnah): One may not benefit from milk or eggs of Kodshim, Me'ilah does not apply to them. (Surely, the same applies to blood. Shitah - this is because menstrual blood turns into milk in a nursing mother!)
Answer (Rav Huna): Blood is different, for an animal cannot live without it. It can live without milk.
Question (Rav Mesharshiya - Beraisa): One may not benefit from dung (of Kodshim) or (their) Peresh (excrement that was not yet trampled) in a courtyard. Me'ilah does not apply to them. (They are redeemed, and) their money goes to the Lishkah (Rosh, in Pirush Kadmon - i.e. for Bedek ha'Bayis).
An animal cannot live without Peresh!
Answer: Peresh comes from the food it eats. It will eat more and make more Peresh;
Blood was part of its initial creation.
(Beraisa): One may not benefit (from dung or Peresh). Me'ilah does not apply. Their money goes to the Lishkah.
This supports R. Elazar;
(R. Elazar): Whenever Chachamim said that something is Kadosh and not Kadosh (one may not benefit from it, but Me'ilah does not apply), its money goes to the Lishkah.
MILK AND EGGS OF KODSHIM
(Mishnah): One may not benefit from milk or eggs of Kodshim. Me'ilah does not apply to them;
This applies only to Kodshei Mizbe'ach. If one was Makdish a hen, Me'ilah applies to it and its egg. If one was Makdish a donkey, Me'ilah applies to it and its milk.
(Gemara) Question: (The Mishnah finds Me'ilah in the milk and eggs only regarding Bedek ha'Bayis.) If one was Makdish Kedushas Damim for the Mizbe'ach, there should also be Me'ilah!
Answer (Rav Papa): The Mishnah is abbreviated. It means as follows:
This applies only to Kedushas ha'Guf for the Mizbe'ach. If one was Makdish Kedushas Damim for the Mizbe'ach, it is as if he made Hekdesh Bedek ha'Bayis. If one was Makdish a hen and donkey, Me'ilah applies to them and their eggs and milk.