58b----------------------------------------58b

1)

DOES REBELLION APPLY TO MELACHAH? [Moredes:Melachah]

(a)

Gemara

1.

58b (Mishnah): If one was Makdish his wife's earnings, she may eat what she earns (it is not Hekdesh);

2.

R. Meir says, if he was Makdish her extra earnings (more than the Mishnah (64b) requires), it is Hekdesh;

3.

R. Yochanan ha'Sandlar says, it is Chulin.

4.

(Gemara - Rav Huna): A wife can tell her husband 'do not feed me, and I will not work for you.'

i.

He holds that the primary enactment was that she should be fed. He receives her earnings to avoid resentment;

ii.

If she wants, the enactment does not apply.

5.

Rav Huna disagrees with Reish Lakish.

i.

(Reish Lakish): R. Meir holds that her extra earnings are Hekdesh. Because he can force her to work, it is as if he said 'your hands are Hekdesh to their Maker'.

6.

63a (Mishnah): If a woman rebels against her husband, we reduce her Kesuvah by seven Dinarim every week. If a man rebels against his wife, we add three Dinarim to her Kesuvah every week.

7.

(Gemara) Question: What is her rebellion?

8.

Answer #1 (Rav Huna): She refuses to have Bi'ah.

9.

Answer #2 (R. Yosi bar Chanina): (It is even when) she refuses to work.

10.

Question (Mishnah): Similarly, if a man rebels against his wife...

i.

According to R. Yosi bar Chanina, is he obligated to work for her?!

11.

Answer: He refuses to feed her.

12.

Question (Beraisa): The law of rebellion applies... even if she is Nidah or sick.

i.

If she rebels from Bi'ah, why do we decrease her Kesuvah? A Nidah may not have Bi'ah in any case!

13.

Answer: Without her rebellion, her husband was (content) like one who has bread in his basket (later, she will be permitted). Now, he is (troubled) like one whose basket is empty.

14.

63b - Question: What is the case of a rebel (in which we deliberate)?

15.

Answer (Ameimar): She desires (to stay married to) him, just she wants to pain him.

16.

64a - Question (R. Chiya bar Yosef): Why is a wife who rebels punished more than a husband who rebels?

17.

Answer #1 (Shmuel): We find that men hire women for harlotry (and not vice-versa, for men desire Bi'ah more).

18.

Answer #2 (Shmuel): No one sees a woman's desire. A man's desire is perceptible (an erection, which is disgraceful).

19.

107b: The Halachah follows Rav Huna, who says that a wife can tell her husband 'do not feed me, and I will not work for you.'

(b)

Rishonim

1.

Rif and Rosh (23b and 5:14): The Halachah follows Rav Huna, who says that a wife can tell her husband 'do not feed me, and I will not work for you.'

2.

Rif and Rosh (26b): The Halachah follows Rav Huna, who says that rebellion is refusing to have Bi'ah. We learn from Ameimar, who says that we deliberate when she desires him, just she wants to pain him.

3.

Question (Ra'avad, in Sefer ha'Zechus): What proof is this? All agree that refusal to have Bi'ah is rebellion. Ameimar explains that this is when she wants to pain him, but if he is repulsive to her, she is divorced immediately without a Kesuvah. However, we are concerned lest she seeks to marry another, so we delay the Get one year. We can bring a proof from Rav Chiya bar Yosef's question (why does rebellion apply to a Nidah), and Shmuel's answer (she removed his Pas b'Salo). Surely, they hold that rebellion is only from Bi'ah! (Our text brings the question and answer Stam, without names.) However, it is unreasonable that a woman demands food and refuses to work and is not considered a rebel! If one vowed not to nurse her son, he forces her. How can he force her? Verbal coercion does not help. It is not proper to beat a woman with sticks. Surely, he reduces her Kesuvah, or divorces her immediately for free. All the more so, he can force her when she did not vow. Perhaps there is no proof from the question of a Nidah, for the Beraisa also mentions a sick woman (who cannot work), so presumably also a Nidah refers to rebellion from Bi'ah.

4.

Sefer ha'Zechus: According to Rav Huna, if she is fed and does not do her Melachos, we evaluate the cost of a servant to do them. Beis Din compensates him by reducing her Nichsei Melug or Nichsei Tzon Barzel, or by selling them, just like a woman who wounded her husband or someone else. He reduces her food according to the Melachos she neglects. R. Yosi b'Ribi Chanina holds that we fine her from her Kesuvah every week, and if she persists four weeks she loses her entire Kesuvah. Whenever we say that a husband forces, e.g. he may force her to apply rouge or feed his cattle, it is through words or denying food.

i.

Ran (DHGemara): The Yerushalmi says that refusal to work is not rebellion. H e forces her with a stick, or does not feed her, or Beis Din sells her Kesuvah for Tovas Hana'ah to hire a slave, or we excommunicate her.

5.

Rambam (Hilchos Ishus 12:4): If a woman says 'do not feed me, and I will not work for you', we heed her and do not force her.

6.

Rambam (21:10): If a woman refuses to do any obligatory Melachah, we force her, even with a stick.

i.

Rebuttal (Ra'avad): I never heard about hittng women with sticks. Rather, he diminishes her needs and food until she submits.

ii.

Beis Yosef (EH 80 DH u'Mah she'Chosav Yir'eh): The Tur says that the Rambam holds that rebellion from Melachah is rebellion. He learns from the fact that we force her with sticks. If she could say 'do not feed me, and I will not work for you', why would we force her? However, why didn't the Rambam say that we deduct from her Kesuvah? I say that the Rambam does not consider her a rebel. He said (12:4) that if she says 'do not feed me, and I will not work for you', we heed her. In Perek 21, he discusses one who wants to be fed without working. The Ran explains that since she did not pardon food, he must still feed her, therefore he can force her to work. Alternatively, even when she says 'do not feed me, and I will not work for you', this helps only for spinning, but not for other Melachos.

iii.

Rosh (5:31): Rav Huna says that refusing to work is not rebellion. This is like he said above, that a wife can tell her husband 'do not feed me, and I will not work for you.' R. Yosi b'Ribi Chanina says that it is rebellion. He holds like Reish Lakish, who says that a man can force his wife to work. If he can force her, why is she considered a rebel? Since she works only through coercion, she is a rebel.

(c)

Poskim

1.

Shulchan Aruch (EH 80:15): If a wife refuses to do a mandatory Melachah, we force her.

i.

Gra (25): We cannot say that we do not force at all. We force a woman to nurse. Even if she brings in 100 slaves, we force her (for idleness ruins people).

2.

Rema: He does not feed her until she does it. Beis Din excommunicates her or sells her Kesuvah to hire a slave. Some say that Beis Din forces her with sticks.

i.

Chelkas Mechokek (26): Beis Din does not excommunicate her if he does not feed her, for then she may say that she will not work for him. Rather, they excommunicate her if he does not want to withhold food, e.g. she is nursing or for another reason.

See also:

Other Halachos relevant to this Daf:

OTHER D.A.F. RESOURCES
ON THIS DAF