1)

ESTIMATING VALUES (cont.)

(a)

Question #3: (If you will say that we are concerned lest his value increased,) if he said "Dami Alai," and before we estimated him, he said this again, what is the law?

1.

Surely, one estimate suffices;

2.

Or, perhaps since he vowed at two distinct times, he must be evaluated for each by itself!

(b)

Question #4: If you will say that he must be evaluated for each by itself, what if he said "Twice my Damim is Alai at once"?

1.

Since both vows takes effect at once, one estimate suffices;

2.

Or, since he said "twice," it is like vows at distinct times!

(c)

Question #5: If you will say that it is like vows at distinct times (Tosfos - really, this does not depend on the previous questions), if 10 people estimated him for no reason, and then he said "Dami Alai", what is the law?

1.

Since he was just estimated, we may rely on this;

2.

Or, perhaps they must intend to estimate for the sake of Erchin.

(d)

Answer (to Question 5 - Mishnah): If one said "Dami Alai" and died, his heirs are exempt.

1.

If we may rely on a previous estimate, surely we know that (any normal person) was worth at least four Zuz!

(e)

Version #1 (Rashi) Rejection: The estimate of his value must be in his lifetime (Rambam - to fulfill Ha'amadah and Ha'arachah; Ra'avad - to make it like an act of Beis Din, according to the opinion that a Milveh Al Peh cannot be collected from heirs).

(f)

Version #2 (R. Gershom) Rejection: The estimate of his value must be precise.

2)

STRINGENCIES OF DAMIM AND ERCHIN

(a)

(Mishnah): A stringency of Erchin over Nedarim is that if one said "Erki Alai" and died, his heirs are liable. If he said "Dami Alai" and died, his heirs are exempt, for a Mes has no value.

(b)

If one said "the Erech of my arm or leg is Alai," his words do not take effect. If he said "the Erech of my head or liver is Alai," he gives his full Erech.

1.

The general rule is, one pays full Erech for Erech of a vital organ.

(c)

If one said "half my Erech is Alai," he pays half his Erech. If he said "the Erech of half of me is Alai," he pays his full Erech;

(d)

If one said "half my Damim is Alai," he pays half his value. If he said "the Damim of half of me is Alai," he pays his full value;

1.

The general rule is, one who pledges the Damim of something essential to life gives his full Damim.

(e)

If Reuven said "the Erech of Ploni is Alai," and Reuven and Ploni died, Reuven's heirs pay the Erech;

(f)

If he said "Demai Ploni Alai," and Reuven died, his heirs pay it;

1.

If (also) Ploni died, Reuven's heirs are exempt, for a Mes has no value.

(g)

(Gemara - Beraisa): A stringency of Nedarim (i.e. Damim) over Erchin is that Nedarim apply to Behemos, Chayos and birds, and a poor person must pay the full amount. These do not apply to Erchin;

(h)

A stringency of Erchin over Nedarim is that if one said "Erki Alai" and died, his heirs are liable. If he said "Dami Alai" and died, his heirs are exempt, for a Mes has no value.

(i)

Inference: A Milveh Al Peh (a loan without a document) can be collected from heirs.

(j)

Rejection: No. Erchin is unlike a regular Milveh Al Peh, for it is explicit in the Torah.

(k)

Inference: An obligation explicitly written in the Torah is considered like a Milveh bi'Shtar (a loan with a document).

(l)

Rejection: No. The case is, Beis Din already obligated him to pay. (All agree that an act of Beis Din is like a Milveh bi'Shtar.)

(m)

Question: If so, also regarding Damim, Beis Din already obligated him to pay. Why are the heirs exempt?

(n)

Answer: There is no obligation to pay Damim until estimation is done. Erchin does not require estimation.

3)

PARTIAL ERCHIN

(a)

(Mishnah): If one said "the Erech of my arm or leg is Alai"...

(b)

(Rav Gidal citing Rav): He gives the value of the limb.

(c)

Question: The Mishnah says that his words do not take effect!

(d)

Answer: His words do not take effect according to Chachamim, but they take effect according to R. Meir.

(e)

Question: Rav already taught this in another way!

1.

(Rav Gidal citing Rav): If one said "the Erech of this Kli is Alai," he must give its value (according to R. Meir).

(f)

Answer: One might have thought only here he is obligated, for all know that a Kli has no Erech, so surely, he intended to give its value;

1.

However, perhaps one who says "Erech Yadi Alai" errs. He/ thinks that this obligates paying (his full) Erech, just like "Erech Roshi Alai," and he did not intend for Damim. Rav teaches that this is not so.

(g)

(Mishnah): If he said "the Erech of my head or liver is Alai," he gives his full Erech.

(h)

Question: What is the reason?

(i)

Answer: It says "Nefashos" (anything vital to life).

(j)

(Mishnah): The general rule is, one who pledges the Erech of something essential to life...

(k)

This includes the leg above the knee. (Our Mishnah is unlike R. Shimon, who says that one can live without this.)

4)

ERCHIN OF A HALF

(a)

(Mishnah): If one said "half my Erech is Alai"...

(b)

(Beraisa): If one said "half my Erech is Alai," he pays half his Erech;

(c)

R. Yosi b'Rebbi Yehudah says, he is Lokeh (lashed) and pays his full Erech.

(d)

Question: Why is he lashed?!

(e)

Answer (Rav Papa): He means that he is "smitten" with a Chiyuv to pay his full Erech.

(f)

Question: What is the reason?

(g)

Answer: This is a Gezeirah due to one who says "the Erech of half of me is Alai";

1.

The latter must pay his full Erech, for one cannot live missing half of himself.

(h)

(Mishnah): If one said "half my Damim is Alai," he pays half his value. If he said "the Damim of half of me is Alai," he pays his full value. (Tosfos - R. Yosi b'Rebbi Yehudah also decrees in the case of "half my Damim".

(i)

Question: What is the reason?

(j)

Answer: It says "Neder b'Erkecha Nefashos."

(k)

(Mishnah): The general rule is, something essential to life...

(l)

This includes the leg above the knee.

(m)

(Beraisa - R. Meir): If one said "half the Erech of this Kli is Alai," he pays its value;

(n)

Chachamim say, his words do not take effect.

(o)

Question (Abaye and Rabanan): Granted, R. Meir holds that one never says meaningless words (to Hekdesh. We must interpret the person's words in a way that obligates himself), whether he was Ma'arich a whole Kli or half;

1.

However, what is Chachamim's reason?

i.

If they hold that one (sometimes) says meaningless words, they should exempt even one who is Ma'arich a whole Kli;

ii.

If they agree that one never says meaningless words, they should also obligate one who is Ma'arich half a Kli!

(p)

Answer (Rabah): Chachamim hold like R. Meir and like R. Shimon:

1.

They agree with R. Meir that one does not say meaningless words;

2.

They hold like R. Shimon, who exempts one who vowed abnormally;

i.

It is normal to vow to give the value of a whole Kli, but not of half a Kli.

5)

WHEN HEIRS OF THE NODER MUST PAY

(a)

(Mishnah): If Reuven said "the Erech of Ploni is Alai," and Reuven died...

(b)

Question: (We must say that Reuven's heirs pay the Erech because) the case is, Beis Din obligated him;

1.

This is just like the Reisha ("Erki Alai")!

(c)

Answer: There is a Chidush in the Seifa. If he said "Demai Ploni Alai," and Reuven died, his heirs pay:

20b----------------------------------------20b

1.

One might have thought that since Beis Din did not estimate Ploni's value in Reuven's lifetime, Reuven's property is not Meshu'abad;

2.

The Seifa teaches that this is not so. Since Beis Din obligated him, his property is Meshu'abad. The assessment of Ploni merely reveals the amount.

6)

ACHARAYUS

(a)

(Mishnah): If one said "this ox is an Olah," or "this house is a Korban" (i.e. Hekdesh Bedek ha'Bayis), and the ox died or the house fell, he is exempt;

(b)

If he said "this ox is Alai an Olah," or, "this house is Alai a Korban," and it died or fell, he is liable.

(c)

(Gemara - Rav Chiya bar Rav): This is only if he said "Demei (the value of) this ox is Alai an Olah." If he said "this ox is Alai an Olah," he does not accept Acharayus;

1.

"Alai" means 'I must exert myself to offer it.'

(d)

Question (Beraisa): If one said "this ox is an Olah," it is Hekdesh, Me'ilah applies to it, and he has no Acharayus if it dies or is stolen;

1.

If he said "this ox is Alai an Olah," it is Hekdesh, Me'ilah applies to it; he has Acharayus for death and theft.

(e)

Answer: Also the text of the Mishnah also did not say "Demei," yet Rav Chiya answered that the case is that he said Demei;

1.

He can answer the Beraisa the same way!

(f)

Question: In the Seifa of the Beraisa he said Demei. This implies that in the Reisha, he did not!

1.

(Seifa): If he said "Demei of this ox is an Olah," it is Chulin. Me'ilah does not apply to it, and he has no Acharayus for its money (i.e. after it is sold).

(g)

Answer: In both the Reisha and Seifa, he said Demei;

1.

In the Reisha, he was Makdish the ox (now) for its value. In the Seifa, he said that its money will become Hekdesh when it will be sold.

(h)

Version #1A - Question: One cannot Makdish Davar she'Lo Ba l'Olam (something that is not yet in the world, or in his possession)!

(i)

Answer (Rav Yehudah): The Beraisa is R. Meir, who says that one can be Makdish Davar she'Lo Ba l'Olam.

(j)

Version #1B - Question (Rav Papa): Is the Beraisa like R. Meir, who says that one can be Makdish Davar she'Lo Ba l'Olam?

(k)

Answer (Abaye): (Yes!) Who else could it be like?