You summarize the Gemara in the answers to Review Questions as follows:
8)
(a) We establish the Seifa (of 'u'Sefeika Asurah') by Safek Treifah, which makes it a Safek d'Oraisa. But in that case, we ask, why does the Beraisa go on to forbid the egg even if it became mixed with a thousand other eggs? Why should it not become Batel?!
(b) This is not a problem according to our initial interpretation of the Beraisa (that the Tana is referring to a Safek whether it was laid on Yom-Tov) - because as long as we are speaking of a Safek Yom-Tov, we will apply the principle that 'Davar she'Yesh Lo Matirin does not become Batel' (mid'Rabanan). My question: what do you mean that a Davar she'Yesh Lo Matirin does not become Batel .....the egg it is already Mutar because of the principle of Safek d'Rabanan l'Kula?
My question in detail is:
If we have a principle 'Safek d'Rabanan, l'Kula'. That means the egg is permissible. Now how does it make sensed to say: if this egg that is declared mutar falls into a batch of eggs... the mixture is prohibited and we apply the principle that 'Davar she'Yesh Lo Matirin and the mixture does not become Batel' and therefore it fits in with Rav Yasef and Rav Yitzchak that it will remain Asur, I don't understand.... The egg is already permissible before it got into the mixture since we say Safek d'Rabanan l"Kula ?( as the gammrah just said)? as long as we are speaking of an egg that was a Safek Yom-Tov(when it was hatched), It is a Safek d'Rabanan l"Kula . The egg can't be worse off than before it fell into the mixture and was mutar?
Thank you,
RE
Perhaps the explanation we gave was not clear enough. The Gemara means to prove that Rabah is correct and Rav Yosef and Rebbi Yitzchak are not. According to Rabah , Safek Yom Tov is a Safek d'Oraisa, not a Safek d'Rabanan as you assumed. In addition, since the Isur will become permitted after Yom Tov it is a Davar she'Yesh Lo Matirim. Therefore we should prohibit the egg even if it is mixed with 100 kosher eggs.
However, according to Rav Yosef and Rebbi Yitzchak, you are certainly correct. The egg cannot prohibit a mixture if it itself is permitted! That is exactly what the Gemara is asking: How will Rav Yosef and Rebbi Yitzchak understand why the Beraisa prohibits the egg - and even the mixture.
Be well,
M. Kornfeld
Sorry, but please don't give up on me just yet. I think we have a misunderstanding. When you said "According to Rabah, Safek Yom Tov is a Safek d'Oraisa, not a Safek d'Rabanan as you assumed"
I never assume that according to Rabah that the safek was d'Rabanan ....this is where the misunderstanding is. If you can please explain just one line of the gammarah I believe my problem will be solved...... it is on daf 3b 20 lines down the second word on the line ..."Bis'lomar" it say: it is good if you say Safek yom tov Safek chol ha'vey Davar she'Yesh Lo Matirin and therefore it would not be butel even in a thousand. ..now ..at this point when the gammarah says(repeating it) it is good if you say Safek yom tov Safek chol ....what does the gammarah hold as far as a Safek d'Rabanan la'kolah right now at this point? The gammarah just said three lines above this (17 lines down from the top the line starts Safek de'Rabanan hee) that all Safek d'Rabanan is la'kolah. Now if you want to say that at this point all of a sudden there is a dispute if Safek d'Rabanan is la'kolah and now we are saying that it is not la'kolah then what is it...okay..it is ...la'chumrah and if it fell into a mixture we would still say that it is not butil b'rov because it is a Davar she'Yesh Lo Matirin...then how does the gammarh know that Rav Yosef and Rebbi Yitzchak says that a Safek d'Rabanan is la'kolah maybe they too say it is lachumrah and they would fit into the first part and second part of the b'rasia . Secondly, If you say that everyone alway hold Safek d'Rabanan is la'kolah then obviously we have a problem which is: the egg is already mutar and if it gets it to a mixture it would remain mutar.
Thank you so much for your time. At least you really got me learning. Please send me a phone number so I can discuss this with you if you don't see my point.
Thank you once again ...who knows maybe one day I'll be rich an send you a donation :) but don't count on it ..... I don't want to be o"ver lif nay e'ver:))
The greatest Hatzlacha to you,your family and your yeshiva
With great respect,
RE
RE -
(a) It seems that you understand the Gemara's statement "bi'Shlama Safek Yom Tov..." to mean, "I can understand how Rav Yosef and Rav Yitzchak prohibited the egg when mixed into 1000 if they say that the prohibition of the egg if because of Safek Yom Tov." That is why you ask: how can Rav Yosef and Rav Yitzchak prohibit the egg due to Safek Yom Tov, if Safek Yom Tov is only a Safek d'Rabanan (in which we rule leniently). If that is your understanding, your question is indeed a tough question.
However, I did not understand the Gemara that way. The Gemara is stating "bi'Shlama Safek Yom Tov" according to the understanding of Rabah (who learns that Safek Yom Tov is a Safek d'Oraisa), and not according to Rav Yosef and Rav Yitzchak (who learn that it is a Safek d'Rabanan). The Gemara thus reads as follows:
"I can understand why the egg is Asur according to Rabah, who learns that the egg is Asur mid'Oraisa on Yom Tov. According to Rabah, if the egg may have been laid on Yom Tov it is Asur mi'Safek (i.e. Safek d'Oraisa). That explains the first statement in the Beraisa according to Rabah. Also, if it is mixed with a thousand others it is Asur because of Davar she'Yesh Lo Matirin. That explains the second statement in the Beraisa according to Rabah.
"BUT according to Rav Yosef and Rav Yitzchak who learn that the egg is a Safek d'Rabanan on Yom Tov, obviously the Beraisa is not discussing an egg which we think might have been laid on Yom Tov, because such an egg is permitted mi'Safek (it is a Safek d'Rabanan, like you yourself said, RE). If so, it must be prohibiting the egg because of a different kind of Safek - a Safek whether the egg is a Tereifah (which is a Safek d'Oraisa, and is prohibited). That explains the first statement in the Beraisa according to Rav Yosef and Rav Yitzchak. However, if we are discussing a Safek Tereifah, the egg is not a Davar she'Yesh Lo Matirin. Why, then, is it prohibited when mixed with 1000 other eggs? Thus, the second statement in the Beraisa is difficult according to Rav Yosef and Rav Yitzchak."
I hope that was more clear.
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Tizkeh l'Mitzvos,
Mordecai Kornfeld
Kollel Iyun Hadaf