Tosfos DH b'Kitfa writes: "Even R. Zeira agrees that the Halachah follows R. Eliezer only in four places."
What is Tosfos' source that R. Zeira agrees that the Halachah follows R. Eliezer only in four places? Also, if R. Zeira agrees, why did he say (8a) "you and your father permit", implying that he himself argues? R. Pedas' father said only that the Halachah follows R. Eliezer only in four places, and even R. Zeira agrees to this!
Thanks for your help!
Pesach Feldman, Yerushalayim
1) It seems to me that Tosfos (8b, DH b'Kitfa) learned this from the question of Rebbi Yirmeyah on Rebbi Zeira (8b). Rebbi Yirmeyah asked, "Do you not hold that the Tana who maintains that Kitfa is a fruit is Rebbi Eliezer?" This implies that Rebbi Zeira does not necessarily learn that Rebbi Eliezer is the author of the Mishnah cited on 8a, that says that Shemitah applies to Kitfa because it is a fruit.
2) Now, if we look on 8a, we find that Rebbi Pedas said, "Who is the Tana who maintains that Kitfa is a fruit? It is Rebbi Eliezer." Rebbi Zeira immediately reacted to this, which also suggests that Rebbi Zeira did not agree that this is Rebbi Eliezer's opinion. Rebbi Zeira said that, if so, it emerges from the combined opinions of Rebbi Pedas and his father that Kitfa is permitted in the Shemitah year.
3) However, it seems that Rebbi Zeira's dispute was with Rebbi Pedas, not necessarily with the father of Rebbi Pedas. Before Rebbi Pedas made his statement, Rebbi Zeira had no complaint about his father's opinion. What concerned Rebbi Zeira was the result of Rebbi Pedas' assertion; that Kitfa would be permitted in Shemitah. If so, there is no reason why we should have to say that Rebbi Zeira disagrees with Rebbi Elazar ben Pedas, especially as there is a general rule that one attempts to reduce the number of disputes that exist ("Afuki Pelugta Lo Mafshinan"). This is how Tosfos knew that Rebbi Zeira agrees that the Halachah follows Rebbi Eliezer in only four places.
4) When, on 8a, he says "your father permits," this does not mean that he disagrees with the father of Rebbi Pedas. He merely disagrees with the inferred conclusion of Rebbi Pedas that Kitfa is permitted on Shemitah. This is only partially based on his father's opinion.
Kol Tuv,
Dovid Bloom
I am still uneasy about your answer to my question
What is Tosfos' source that R. Zeira agrees that the Halachah follows R. Eliezer only in four places? Also, if R. Zeira agrees, why did he say (8a) "you and your father permit", implying that he himself argues? R. Pedas' father said only that the Halachah follows R. Eliezer only in four places, and even R. Zeira agrees to this!
In response to the first 3 points in your answer-
1)Yes! The Lashon "you and your father permit" connotes that R. Zeira did not necessarily learn like either of them - but we could say that he could tolerate either one's teaching by itself, as long as we will say opposite to the other teaching. (Perhaps he objected because he assumes that R. Pedas holds like his father. Or, since we did not find others who explicitly taught unlike either of them, people will follow both teachings, and permit Kitfa.) If you agree with this, I do not understand your answer.
2)I could say that he had already heard R. Pedas' father's opinion, so he did not object until hearing the second ruling, of R. Pedas.
3)Before Rebbi Pedas made his statement, Rebbi Zeira had no complaint about his father's opinion, for he assumed that if so, we must say unlike Rebbi Pedas!
1) Reb Pesach, I do not agree with what you wrote in 1). I should stress that the crucial point is the fact that we can infer from R' Yirmiah's question that he understood that R' Zeira learned that the Mishnah about Kitfa does not follow R' Eliezer. This is why R' Zeira could not tolerate R' Pedas' teaching, but he could tolerate his father's teaching.
2) I agree.
3) I agree.
Yasher Koach Gadol
Dovid Bloom
Reb Pesach, I saw in the Ritva to Nidah 8a (DH Chazi) that he seems to understand the Gemara the way you understood it. The Ritva certainly appears to disagree with Tosfos, so I do not believe that the Ritva is a contradiction to what I wrote to explain Tosfos because, anyway, they are very different Shitos. Nevertheless, understanding the Ritva may also help us to highlight what Tosfos is saying.
1) The Ritva writes (on Rebbi Zeira's words, "See that from you and your father you have permitted Kitfa to the world") that one learns from this language that the Halachah follows the anonymous Mishnah which maintains that Shemitah applies to Kitfa. The Ritva writes that this holds true even though the Mishnah follows Rebbi Eliezer, because as long as we do not rule that the Halachah does not follow Rebbi Eliezer, it can still follow Rebbi Eliezer. The Ritva proves this from the fact that Rebbi Zeira said "from you and your father." Had the Halachah been against Rebbi Eliezer, it would have sufficed for Rebbi Zeira merely to say "from you." The fact that Rebbi Zeira also said "from your father" proves that he does not accept the rule of Rebbi Elazar ben Pedas that the Halachah only follows Rebbi Eliezer in four places.
2) Accordingly, the Ritva learns that Rebbi Zeira also disagrees with Rebbi Pedas' father and, in addition he clearly disagrees with Tosfos who says that Rebbi Zeira maintains that the Halachah only follows Rebbi Eliezer in four places, since the Ritva writes that the Halachah can follow Rebbi Eliezer on Kitfa as long as we do not explcilty rule the opposite.
3) In my opinion, this draws out clearly the difference between Tosfos and the Ritva, who are each consistent with their own Shitos. Tosfos maintains that Rebbi Zeira says that the Halachah only follows Rebbi Eliezer on four occasions, so he has to say that Rebbi Zeira only argues with Rebbi Pedas, not with his father, while the Ritva learns that the Halachah can follow Rebbi Eliezer in many places, so he learns that Rebbi Zeira argues with both father and son.
Kol Tuv,
Dovid Bloom