More Discussions for this daf
1. Speaking around wine and incense 2. White wine 3. White wine for Kiddush
DAF DISCUSSIONS - MENACHOS 87

Robert Karr asked:

On daf 87 you discuss white wine for kiddish.. What is the halacha lamasa, however. Can you discuss and give several sources and contemporary poskim that give a clear possok. The gamara discusses neschim but kiddish is different or maybe it is not? Please clarify

The Kollel replies:

Dear Robert,

In Insights to Menachos 87a, we wrote, "See SHULCHAN ARUCH OC 272:4, who quotes the opinion of the Ramban regarding the use of white wine for Kidush, and says that according to the Ramban white wine may not be used even b'Di'eved for Kidush. However, the Shulchan Aruch says that others rule differently, and the custom is to follow their opinion."

The BEIS YOSEF (274:4) explains that the crux of the matter is, first, whether or not the Gemara in Bava Basra (97b) is dealing only with Nesachim, and, second, whether or not the Gemara's conclusion would mean that white wine could not be used for Kidush. The major three Halachic opinions which the Beis Yosef uses to formulate the Halachah -- the RIF, RAMBAM, and ROSH -- do not discuss this Gemara at all. This indicates that they do not hold that the Gemara is regarding Kidush, and would agree that white wine may be used (the Rambam does not even mention this Gemara in the Halachos regarding Nesachim, which leads the Beis Yosef to understand that he held that it is Kosher for Nesachim as well, as I pointed out in the last paragraph of the Insights). The Beis Yosef quotes other opinions in the Rishonim that learn that the Gemara is talking about Kidush, and that it is still Kosher. Therefore, the Halachah clearly seems to side with the opinion that white wine is Kosher for Kidush. This, as the Shulchan Aruch states, became the custom.

The Shulchan Aruch also mentions that even the Ramban holds that white wine is Kosher for Havdalah. The MISHNAH BERURAH (272:11) explains that this is because one can use "Chamar Medinah," and white wine is included in the category of Chamar Medinah. For this reason, the Mishnah Berurah adds that according to all opinions one may make Kidush on Shabbos morning with white wine as well, as we use Chamar Medinah for Kidush on Shabbos morning. Hence, the argument above only pertains to Kidush on Shabbos night (which is mid'Oraisa).

The Mishnah Berurah earlier (272:10) puts this argument in context. Everyone agrees that one should use good red wine. The aforementioned argument is regarding the following two scenarios:

1. Whether or not one fulfills the Mitzvah if he makes Kidush on white wine in the absence of having any red wine.

2. If one has a white wine which is of much better quality, the opinions that hold that white wine is Kosher for Kidush will hold that one may make Kidush l'Chatchilah on this better white wine rather than on the inferior red wine.

The Mishnah Berurah (272:12) quotes the ELIYAH RABAH who says that if one has a very white wine (no tinge of red), it is appropriate that he should make Kidush with it if he has no red wine (or if the red wine is not of a good quality, see SHAR HA'TZIYON).

Regarding the Halachah in practice, the argument is only regarding Kidush on Shabbos night. One should l'Chatchilah make Kidush on a good red wine. If one has a superior white wine, then he may make Kidush l'Chatchilah on this as well. If the red wine and white wine are of equal quality, then one should preferably use the red wine even though the custom is to be lenient (especially if the white wine is very white, as per the aforementioned Eliyah Rabah quoted by the Mishnah Berurah;

see SHONEH HALACHOS 272:7). In any event, if someone makes Kidush on any kind of white wine, we rule that he has fulfilled the Mitzvah of Kidush.

Yaakov Montrose