More Discussions for this daf
1. laws of solitary witness 2. Hoda'as Piv vs. Eidim 3. Compare penalty money with Torah oath
4. Self-obligation to pay and Hazamah 5. Modeh b'Miktzas 6. Bringing a Chatas for a sin one denies
DAF DISCUSSIONS - BAVA METZIA 3

Sam Kosofsky asked:

Rebbe,

The gemara discusses a case where two witnesses come and say someone is mechayav a chatas. He denies it. He insists he didn't eat cheilev or whatever similar chait they accused him of. There is a machlokes between Rav Meir and the chachamim whether he is compelled to bring a chatas or not. A kol v'chomer is cited.

If a person brings a chatas, however, he has to be misvadeh and do teshuvah. This individual can do neither of those actions since he continues to actively deny having done the sin he is accused of. How then can he be compelled to bring a chatas?

B'kavod,

Sam Kosofsky

The Kollel replies:

Sam - it was good to hear from you again after a long gap! I remembered that your questions are always lomdish and this was no exception!

(1) Your question is asked by Reb Elchonon Wasserman zt'l in Kovetz Ha'aros on Yevamos 67:13 ( I found this cited in the Shitah Mekubetzes Hamevoar Bava Metzia 3b note 581 wriiten by my late friend and colleague Rabbi Yossi Gutfreind zt'l who was niftar a few months ago at the tragically young age of 45. We learnt together at Rav Tzvi Kushalevsky shlita's Yeshiva before we got married).

(2) Reb Elchanan answers that even though the Gemara states in Shavuos end 12b that the goat offered on Yom Kippur does not atone without Teshuva, this does not necessarily mean that Teshuva as such is an essential part which must combine with every Korban. Rather the main thing is that the korban should not be a "sacrifice of a rasha which is an abonimation" (Mishlei 21:27) as mentioned in the above Gemara. Therefore if a person is aware that he is obliged to do Teshuva but does not do so, he is a rasha and his sacrifice is an abomination. In contrast if he does not know that he must do Teshuva - for instance in our Gemara according to Rabbi Meir where he believes he never ate the cheilev - he is consequently not considered a rasha and his sacrifice is valid even without Teshuva.

(3) Reb Elchanan cites a proof for this idea from the above Gemara from which one learns that a public korban, i.e. the Yom Kippur goat, also does not provide atonement for someone who did not do teshuva. However the Mishnah on Shavuos 2a states that the goats offered on Regalim (Yomtov) atone for cases where a person was not aware either before or after that he had entered the Beis Hamikdash or eaten holy food when he was impure. In such a case a person could clearly not do Teshuva because he had no idea that he was ever impure. Even so we see that the goats on Yomtov provide atonement for this for the public. This proves that if a person does not know that he has to do Teshuva he is not considered a rasha, and the korban can atone for him.

(4) You also wrote that when someone brings a korban he has to be misvadeh. I am not sure at the moment whether this applies to a chatas because the Torah (Bamidbar 5:7) appears only to require this for an asham. In addition it is not clear that the korban is invalid without the viduy. Even though the Rambam (Hilchos Teshuva 1:1) seems to say that viduy is an essential part of Teshuva, nevertheless as we have written above, Teshuva is not necessarily an essential part of the korban if the person did not know he had done an aveira.

Gut Chodesh and Gut Yomtov

Dovid Bloom

The Kollel adds:

Here is a new reply to your question. Rabbi Meir maintains that in reality one can assume that the person has actually done Teshuva for eating the cheilev, but he is merely embarrased to admit this in public. He continues to deny openly that he ate the cheilev even though he knows deep down that he did, and is sorry about it. So in fact when he brings the korban this is accompanied by Teshuva. It could also be that he is misvadeh on the korban when no-one is looking or listening.

(See Rambam Hilchos Teshuva 2:5 who writes that concerning transgressions between man and Hash-m one should not publicise one's aveira. However the Rambam does write that he should be misvadeh on the cheit without making publicity so I am not suggesting that the person in our Gemara is actually doing the right thing by denying eating the cheilev.)

KOL TUV

Dovid Bloom