Hi, I have some questions on the Mishnah/Gemara of "V'Ad Masai Chayiv L'Hachriz"....

1) According to R'Meir who holds that you only have to announce the found item until the neighbors of the place where it was found become aware of it, WHERE did the announcing take place? Presumably, it was also announced in the neighborhood of the place where it was found, if so, then what was the point of the Even Hatoen (which we know historically existed) in Yerushalayim according to R'Meir?

Or does R'Meir agree that you ANNOUNCE it at the Even HaToen, but you don't have to wait 3 regalim, you just have to wait till word gets back to the neighbors of the place where it was found, which could even be less than 3 regalim?

Or maybe the Even HaToen according to R'Meir was only for things found on the regel, in the vicinity of Yerushalayim?

2) According to R' Meir - What is the shiur for "until the neighbors find out"? a) What are the boundaries of "the neighbors of the place where it was found" and b) How do you know when this has been achieved, i.e. that you have made them aware?

3) According to R' Yehudah - If the item was found in Chutz L'Aretz, or even in Eretz Yisrael, but far from Yerushalayim, do you actually take the lost item with you every regel to the Even HaToen to announce it there - what if it's a big tirchah to do that? Also, if you take it with you to the Even HaToen, you'd have to conceal it from the eyes of the people there so that people don't see its simanim ahead of time....it seems strange to announce/take the lost item so far away from where it was found...

4) When was it announced? On the regel every day (if you take the item with you there, as suggested above, what if it was muktzeh?). And if the finder finds it on the regel, does it still count as 1 regel if the finder only announces it part of the regel....

Maybe they only announced it on Chol HaMoed (what about Shavuos?), or maybe AFTER the regel (would that be at night, or in the morning...what if people already started leaving and missed the hachrazah?)

5) According to Rav Yehudah on 28b, who says you only announce that a lost item was found, but not the name of the item, logistically, how did the owner identify the finder at the Even Hatoen, if everyone is announcing the same thing? Every owner of every lost item would have to approach every finder of every lost item until he was able to identify who found his lost item?

6) The Mishnah says that the finder waits 7 days after the last regel - 3 days for the owner to go home, and 3 days to return, and one day of hachraza. How does that take into account the problem of traveling/claiming taking place over Shabbos?

Thank you,

Daniel Steinberg, United States

Shalom R' Rueven,

I happened to come across a Halacha in Hilchos Shabbos that somewhat references one of the below questions about which we previously corresponded:

4) When was it announced? On the regel every day (if you take the item with you there, as suggested above, what if it was muktzeh?....

Maybe they only announced it on Chol HaMoed (what about Shavuos?), or maybe AFTER the regel...

In O.C. Siman 306:12 the Mechaber writes (the Be'er HaGolah on the side indicates this Halacha is based on a Teshuvas HaRashba, though I did not see the Teshuva inside) that you can announce a lost item on Shabbos, even if it is Muktzeh. The Mishnah Berurah explains the Chiddush is that even though you cannot actually return the item that day, it's still Mutar for the finder to announce it on Shabbos, because that's a time when the masses gather.

So B'stama, lost items WERE announced on the Regel Atzmo (not just Chol Hamoed), and if they were Muktzeh, presumably they were either brought to the Even HaToen before Yom Tov, or not brought at all, and in those cases, somehow the finder would have to connect with the owner AFTER Yom Tov to actually return the item to him.

(It's not clear to me if the reason the Mishnah Berurah provides of: "it's still Mutar, in order to publicize the matter on Shabbos, because that's a time when the masses gather" means -

a) when the masses gather, it makes it more likely for the lost item to be returned to its owner, or

b) when the masses gather is what makes it more like a communal affair ("Iskei Rabim"), which is Mutar to discuss on Shabbos - see the Rema in this very same Halacha - and the Mishnah Berurah would be saying, since you can't actually return a Muktzeh item on that day, you need this Svara to make it Mutar to announce on Shabbos.

It would seem to me it's the first Svara, since anyways anouncing is part of the Mitzvah of Hashavas Aveidah (not just the returning), which already has a Din of "Cheftzei Shamayaim' and should be Mutar to speak about, so you shouldn't require an extra Svara to give it a Din of Iskei Rabim to be able to announce it on Shabbos....

Does that make sense?

B'Chavod,

Daniel