More Discussions for this daf
1. Is Gerushin a "Ma'aseh"? 2. 59B Rav & Shmuel 3. שליחות
4. first mishna of third perek of kiddushin 5. Bitul Dibur/ Shlichus 6. Machlokes Rashi and Tosfos
7. Ani ha'Mehapech b'Chararah 8. Mar'ei Makom 9. שליחות
DAF DISCUSSIONS - KIDUSHIN 59

Ben Greene asks:

We say that the Chidush of of teaching Shelucho is because I wouldn't necessarily know that if I only taught Chaveiro then the Kidushin in the incorrect Makom wouldn't be Chal.

My question is on the principle that Kidushin in the incorrect Makom is not Chal.

I know the Gemara on Daf 50 says that the reason he is Makpid on the Makom is because he cares about his reputation. So he wants the Kidushin to take place in a Makom that his reputation is good. But it seems from the Gemara on 59 that if he declares the specific Makom and they don't go there, but at the end of the day the Shaliach is still Mekadesh the woman, it doesn't work...why doesn't it work?

Are we saying the Makom is a Tenai and that simply the Shaliach didn't fulfill the conditions so there is no Kidushin?

Or can we say, this guy wants this girl, and he thinks he has a better chance in the place where he has a good reputation, and so that's why he says it, but if the Shaliach finds that girl on his way there, (in a different Makom, where he has a bad reputation), and she says yes, can we say Kidushin is still Chal? At the end of the day she agreed. Or do her words mean nothing because the Shelichus is Batel because he didn't fulfill the Tenai?

Ben Greene, Oak Park

The Kollel replies:

Ben, Baruch she'Kivanta! It seems that the Chazon Ish was also concerned about your dilemma.

1) The question is: What is the reason for why the Shelichus is invalid if the Kidushin was not performed in the specified place? Is it because the person who appointed the Shali'ach is Makpid that the Kidushin should be done only in that place, or is it because the Shali'ach changed the instructions of the bridegroom, even if the latter is not Makpid?

2) The Chazon Ish (Even ha'Ezer, Nashim, Hilchos Kidushin, end of 47:6, DH ul'Mai) writes that it appears from 59a that the main reason is not because of the "Kepeidah" of the Meshale'ach (the "appointer" of the Shali'ach) but because he did not appoint him as a Shali'ach to make the Kidushin in a different place. The Chazon Ish writes, "Kol she'Shinah Af she'Ein Kepeidah" -- if the Shali'ach did not follow the instructions, this nullifies the Shelichus even if the potential husband is not particular about the specific instructions being carried out.

3) It seems that the Chazon Ish inferred from 59a that it is not because he is Makpid, since "Mar'eh Makom Hu Lo" is only a Havah Amina in the Gemara, what the Gemara thought to start with, but the conclusion of the Gemara is that we must follow the literal words of the husband, and the Kidushin works only in the place specified.

4) At beginning of 47:6, the Chazon Ish writes that even if the husband would say, "In my heart I wanted the Kidushin to work wherever it is carried out," this is "Devarim sheb'Lev." See the Gemara above, end of 49b, which teaches that "Devarim sheb'Lev Einam Devarim" -- what a person says he was thinking has no legal validity if it contradicts the words that come out of his mouth.

5) However, in the end of 49:9, the Chazon Ish writes that one can explain that when the Gemara (59a) says that the reason why Kidushin does not work when he tells his friend to do it in a certain place is because he thought his friend would not take the trouble to do it elsewhere. This is actually because he is Makpid on that specific place. The Chazon Ish writes that the reason why he did not tell him explicitly that he does not want him to perform the Kidushin elsewhere is because he thought that anyway his friend would not go to the trouble of doing Kidushin anywhere else, so it was unnecessary to warn him about this.

6) In summary, the Chazon Ish has two ways of understanding why it must be done in the specificied place. It may be that Shelichus can work only if the literal instructions are carried out, even if the husband is not particular if small changes would be made. Or it may be that when he said which Makom he wants, this means he is Makpid about this.

However, we are only at the beginning of the Sugya, and I think there are still a few more possibilities here.

7) Another explanation of the Sugya, given by one of the major authorities, puts the whole matter in a very different light. This is from the responsa of the Maharik #170 (bottom of page 193 in the older editions). This responsum is cited by the Mishneh l'Melech, Hilchos Ishus 7:21, and Chazon Ish, Even ha'Ezer 47:6.

("MaHaRIK" is an acronym for Moreinu ha'Rav Yitzchak Kolon, who lived in Spain (born circa 1420, died circa 1480) and was one of the greatest sages of his day. Some have speculated that there was a family link between the Maharik and Colombus, who discovered America. It is very likely that Colombus was a Marrano Jew. Because of the similarity between the names Kolon and Colombus, some have suggested that Colombus was a younger member of the Kolon family.)

a) The Maharik explains the background behind our Gemara. He starts from the Gemara in Kesuvos 23a which states that it is the way of people to do Kidushin in private. In the time of the Gemara, Kidushin was an earlier stage in the marriage process, possibly somewhat similar to engagement nowadays. The Maharik writes that people used to do the Shiduch and the Kidushin privately. The way of people is not to publicize the Kidushin until later on, at the time of "Nisu'in," which is similar to contemporary marriage, when the husband and wife actually start living together. They kept Kidushin quiet because of unscrupulous individuals who might be jealous of the groom and try to persuade the bride not to continue with the marriage.

b) The Maharik writes that this is the scenario in the Mishnah in Kidushin 50a, which states that if the Shali'ach performed Kidushin in a different place than the husband specified, the Kidushin is invalid. Rashi explains that the groom wants this Makom because he has friends there who will defend him. The Maharik writes that it is clear that the negative comments that the husband is concerned about are not being made before the Kidushin, because if the problem is that his enemies in a certain place will persuade her not to do Kidushin, then if his Shali'ach did manage to perform Kidushin with her in this otherwise hostile place, why should the husband want to annul the Kidushin? The enemies were not successful in discouraging her, so the groom should be happy with the result! Therefore, the Maharik writes that the negative comments must be those made after Kidushin, by people trying to persuade her to break off the Kidushin and not complete the marriage.

c) Now we understand why the husband does not want the Kidushin to be made in that place; he is afraid that afterwards, enemies will try to sabotage the Nisu'in. Therefore, even if the Shali'ach was succesful in performing Kidushin in the hostile place, the husband is still not happy because he is apprehensive about the follow-up. He is Makpid that the Kidushin should not be made in a place where this may later lead to hostility. It follows that if Kidushin was made in the wrong place, it has no validity.

Kol Tuv,

Dovid Bloom