More Discussions for this daf
1. Death for sins 2. Malachim advocating on one's behalf 3. Insights #1, referring to Holy items with mundane words
4. "Ad she'Yivlu Sifsoseichem mi'Lomar dai" 5. Death for sins etc. 6. Collateral Damage?
DAF DISCUSSIONS - SHABBOS 32

Dov Rabinowitz comments:

The Kollel wrote-

>>3) (a) The Gemara here does not contradict the Zohar on Vayeishev. The Zohar means that one who falls into the hands of humans (who have Bechirah) needs much more Zechuyos to be saved than one who is at the mercy of the elements, who can be saved with less Zechuyos. In all cases, a person only dies if it is Divinely decreed. Our Gemara is talking about someone who falls off of a roof, who is at the mercy of the elements, so his fate is certainly dependant upon what was decreed.

(b) Besides this, it is obvious that a person does not die without a Divine judgement. As for one who falls into the hands of Ba'alei Bechirah -- this, too, was Divinely decreed -- that this person should fall into the hands of the murderer.<<

Just a point of clarification: I believe that the questioner, in refering to the Ohr Hachayim in Vayeishev, is bringing up the famous machloikis

between the Gr"a and the Ohr Hachaim. The Ohr Hachaim holds that the

bechirah of one human being allows him to kill another even though the

second is not "deserving" of it while the Gr"a holds that if he is not

deserving, the first will be unable to complete the act.

Thanks for the great "service"

Dov Rabinowitz

The Kollel replies:

Yes, you are certainly correct. The Ohr ha'Chaim reiterates the statement of the Zohar ad loc. (which is recorded, by the way, in the Mar'eh Kohen here in Shabbos, on the story of Yosef in the ditch, Daf 22a) that a

Ba'al Bechirah can harm a person even if it has not be decreed in heaven.

However, as I stated, I do not take to mean that a Ba'al Bechirah can harm someone when he is not deserving of it. It is quite clear from many places in Tanach and in Shas, and is logically validated as well, that this is not so. When Yeravam tried to harm the prophet, his hand dried out and he had no control over it (I Melachim 13:4).

Rather, the intention of the Zohar and Ohr ha'Chayim is that Hash-m requires more merits to save a person from a Ba'al Bechirah, since a greater miracle is needed to do so.

When they say that a wild animal only attacks when there is a divine decree, what they mean is that the animal is a messenger of Hash-m, and is sent in order to repay a person for his sins. This is not necessarily true of a Ba'al Bechirah, who may just have used his Bechirah to pass by the neighborhood. Nonetheless, sometimes wild animals are not divine sent -- for instance, ifa person takes a stroll around a lion's den -- and sometimes people are -- such as Nevuchadnezer and others who harmed the entire nation (including in recent generations).

Be well,

-Mordecai