More Discussions for this daf
1. Human Ashes? 2. Har Ha'Moriah 3. Additions to Shemoneh Esrei
4. Efer Mikleh 5. Switch in the loshon 6. Who Davens for the Chazan?
7. Can the dead repay favors to the living? 8. Second Beraisa 9. Ninveh and Teshuvah
10. Davening in the town square 11. Is Height an influencing factor? Rashi DH "Adam Shel Tzurah" 12. Shofar on a Ta'anis
DAF DISCUSSIONS - TA'ANIS 16

moshe rubin asked:

What is the difference in the second version of the braissah on the bottom of amud bais.

moshe rubin, brooklyn, ny

The Kollel replies:

Below please find what we wrote in our Insights to the Daf. If you have any further questions, please contact us.

Best wishes,

Kollel Iyun Hadaf

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4) THE PRAYERS ON A TA'ANIS: THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE "MIKDASH" AND "GEVULIN"

OPINIONS: The Mishnah relates that once, on a public fast day in the times of Rebbi Chalafta and Rebbi Chananya ben Teradyon, the Tefilos for the Ta'anis were conducted in an unusual way. When the Chachamim heard about it they objected and said that we do not pray in such a way outside of the Mikdash.

What exactly did the people do which caused the Chachamim to object? Why was their mistaken practice supposed to be done only in the Mikdash?

(a) RASHI (15b, DH v'Lo Anu) explains that instead of answering "Amen" after each blessing, they answered "Baruch Shem Kevod Malchuso l'Olam va'Ed." Rashi's version of the incident (third line on 15b) reads, "... and they did not answer 'Amen' after him" (which is the Girsa in our text as well).

The Chachamim objected because the only place where "Amen" is not said after a blessing is in the Mikdash, where "Baruch Shem Kevod..." is said instead. The reason for the difference is that in the Mikdash, the four-letter Name of Hash-m is pronounced "k'Kesivaso," as it is written (see RITVA). Since the holier Name of Hash-m is pronounced, a special ending for the blessings was instituted to reflect the sanctity of the holy Name. In the Mikdash, instead of saying, "Baruch Atah Hash-m...," one says, "Baruch Hash-m... Min ha'Olam v'Ad ha'Olam ," as the Gemara here mentions. Since the blessing itself is different, the response after the blessing is also different and reflects the change in the blessing itself ("Baruch Shem Kevod Malchuso l'Olam va'Ed "). (See Insights to Yoma 37:1.)

The Rishonim disagree with Rashi's explanation. Rebbi Chalafta certainly would not have made such a mistake and let the people say "Baruch Shem Kevod" and not "Amen" after the blessings. Everyone knows that only in the Mikdash is "Baruch Shem Kevod" recited after a blessing. The Rishonim therefore assert that this was not the mistake they made. (Their Girsa of the incident as recorded in the Mishnah reads, "... and they answered 'Amen' after him." This is also the Girsa in the Yerushalmi and in the Dikdukei Sofrim.)

(It could be that this disagreement is based on another difference in the Girsa of the Mishnah. The text of the Mishnah as recorded by the RITVA reads, "An incident occurred involving Rebbi Chalafta." The Girsa in our texts, which is also Rashi's Girsa, reads, "An incident occurred in the days of Rebbi Chalafta." According to Rashi's Girsa, it is possible that Rebbi Chalafta was not involved in the incident and it was the laymen who erred. -Y. Shaw)

(b) The RAMBAM (Hilchos Ta'aniyos 4:17, according to the MAGID MISHNEH ibid. 4:3 and the RITVA here) explains that they blew the Shofar during the recitation of the blessings of Shemoneh Esreh on the Ta'anis. The Chachamim objected because the Shofar is blown only during the blessings on a Ta'anis in the Mikdash, and not outside of the Mikdash. (The source for this ruling may be the verse in Bamidbar (10:9) which relates that when the Shofar is blown in a time of trouble, "You will be remembered before Hash-m and you will be saved from your enemies." "Before Hash-m" implies in the Beis ha'Mikdash. -M. Kornfeld)

RASHI (15b) questions this explanation and says that it cannot be that the Chachamim objected on those grounds, because the Gemara mentions in numerous places that the Shofar is blown during times of trouble even outside of the Mikdash. The Rishonim answer Rashi's question on the Rambam's explanation by saying that the Rambam agrees that the Shofar is blown outside of the Mikdash, but outside of the Mikdash it is supposed to be blown only after the blessings. Only in the Mikdash is the Shofar blown during the blessings. The Chachamim objected when the people outside of the Mikdash blew the Shofar during the blessings.

(c) The RE'AH, quoted by the RITVA and RAN, explains that the people altered the order of the blessings. Instead of reciting the supplication of "Mi she'Anah..." and then the Chasimah (the closing words of "Baruch Atah Hash-m...") of the blessing, they recited the Chasimah first and then recited (or repeated) "Mi she'Anah." The Chachamim objected to this practice for the following reason. The blowing of the Shofar must be done with the blessing. Outside of the Mikdash, the people who hear the blessing answer only "Amen." When the Shofar is blown afterwards, it is considered as though it is blown immediately after the blessing that was just recited; "Amen" is not an interruption between the blessing and the Shofar-blowing because it is part of the blessing that was just recited. In contrast, the people in the Mikdash answer "Baruch Shem Kevod..." to each blessing that they hear. "Baruch Shem" itself is a new, independent blessing. Consequently, the Shofar cannot be blown after "Baruch Shem" because it will not be part of the blessing of Shemoneh Esreh that was recited; "Baruch Shem" interrupts between the blessing and the blowing of the Shofar. Therefore, in the Mikdash the Chazan repeats "Mi she'Anah" while the Kohanim prepare to blow the Shofar so that the blowing of the Shofar will be connected to the blessing.

This apparently is the VILNA GA'ON's (Hagahos ha'Gra #1) understanding of the Gemara as well. He removes the words "v'Chozer v'Omer" from the Gemara's description of how the blessings are recited outside of the Mikdash, but he does not remove them from the Gemara's description of how the blessings are recited in the Mikdash. According to his Girsa, the Gemara is saying that in the Mikdash the Chazan repeats the passage of "Mi she'Anah" which he already said ("v'Chozer v'Omer"), while outside of the Mikdash the Chazan does not repeat anything but proceeds to the next blessing. (The Rambam also seems to learn like the Re'ah.)

(d) The RITVA quotes others who explain that the mistake the people made was identical to the mistake made "in the times of Rebbi Chalafta" as recorded in Rosh Hashanah (27a). The Gemara there relates that in the times of Rebbi Chalafta and Rebbi Chanina ben Teradyon the congregation blew both the Shofaros and Chatzotzeros (as opposed to Shofaros alone) outside of the Mikdash. The Chachamim told Rebbi Chalafta that only in the Mikdash are both types of instruments used, while everywhere else only the Shofaros are used. This difference is based on the verse, "With Chatzotzeros and the sound of the Shofar you shall blow a Teru'ah before the King, Hash-m " (Tehilim 98:6), which implies that the only place where both are used is "before the King, Hash-m" -- in the Beis ha'Mikdash. They explain that the Mishnah here refers to the same incident. (According to this suggestion, however, the Mishnah omits the main part of the incident.)