12th Cycle dedication

CHULIN 75 (10 Elul) - This Daf has been dedicated in memory of Sheina Basha (daughter of Yakov and Dora) Zuckerman, who passed away on 10 Elul, by her children and sons in law.

1)

(a)Rebbi Yochanan establishes the Beraisa 'Avar be'Nahar; Huchshar, Halach le'Beis-Hakevaros, Nitma', like Rebbi Yossi ha'Gelili (quoted by Rebbi Shimon ben Elazar in a Beraisa) who holds that a ben Peku'ah adopts Tum'as Ochlin even whilst it is alive. What do the Rabbanan say?

(b)Why does he not establish the Beraisa like the Rabbanan (of Rebbi Meir) in our Mishnah, who hold that the Ubar is considered as if it was in a basket?

(c)Rebbi Yochanan follows his own reasoning regarding a Mishnah in Uktzin. According to Beis Shamai there, fish become subject to Tum'ah from the time they are caught. What do Beis Hillel say?

(d)Rebbi Akiva says ... from the moment that they can no longer live. What is the practical difference between Beis Hillel and Rebbi Akiva?

1)

(a)Rebbi Yochanan establishes the Beraisa 'Avar be'Nahar Huchshar, Halach le'Beis-Hakevaros Nitma' like Rebbi Yossi ha'Gelili (quoted by Rebbi Shimon ben Elazar in a Beraisa) who holds that a ben Peku'ah adopts Tum'as Ochlin even whilst it is alive. The Rabbanan maintain that - a live animal is not subject to Tum'as Ochlin.

(b)He does not establish the Beraisa like the Rabbanan (of Rebbi Meir) in our Mishnah, who hold that the Ubar is considered as if it was in a basket - because they may well concur with the Rabbanan of Rebbi Yossi ha'Gelili, who hold that the animal is nevertheless considered alive, and is therefore not subject to Tum'ah.

(c)Rebbi Yochanan follows his own reasoning regarding a Mishnah in Uktzin. According to Beis Shamai there, fish become subject to Tum'ah from the time that they are caught. Beis Hillel say - from the time that they die ...

(d)... whereas Rebbi Akiva maintains ... from the moment that they can no longer live. The practical difference between Beis Hillel and Rebbi Akiva is - a fish that is gasping its last breath (which is subject to Tum'ah according to Beis Hillel, but not according to Rebbi Akiva.

2)

(a)What does Rebbi Yochanan comments about the opinions of Rebbi Yossi ha'Gelili and Beis Shamai?

(b)What can we extrapolate from his comment, regarding the reason of the Rabbanan of Rebbi Yossi ha'Gelili?

(c)Why can we not attribute it to the fact that they hold like Rebbi Meir (that a ben Peku'ah requires Shechitah)?

(d)How does this explain our statement that Rebbi Yochanan follows his own reasoning?

2)

(a)Rebbi Yochanan comments that - Rebbi Yossi Hagelili and Beis Shamai say one and the same thing.

(b)From his comment we can extrapolate that the reason of the Rabbanan of Rebbi ha'Gelili must be - because a live animal is not subject to Tum'ah ...

(c)... and not because they hold like Rebbi Meir (that a ben Peku'ah requires Shechitah) - because if it was, then in the case of a fish, which does not require Shechitah, they would also agree with Beis Shamai.

(d)This explains our statement that Rebbi Yochanan follows his own reasoning - because he equates Beis Shamai with Rebbi Yossi ha'Gelili, and not with the Rabbanan.

3)

(a)Rav Chisda asks what the Din will be regarding a fish that contracts Simnei T'reifus. What difference will it make, seeing as it does not require Shechitah anyway?

(b)According to which Tana is Rav Chisda asking?

(c)What is the She'eilah, even assuming that ...

1. ... a T'reifah animal can survive? Why might a fish be worse in this regard?

2. ... a T'reifah animal cannot live? Why might a fish be better than an animal?

(d)What is the outcome of the She'eilah?

3)

(a)Rav Chisda asks what the Din will be regarding a fish that contracts Simnei T'reifus. This is not a question of eating it (since it does not require Shechitah anyway) - but of when it becomes subject to Tum'as Ochlin.

(b)Rav Chisda is asking - according to Rebbi Akiva (who declares it Tamei even before it is actually dead.

(c)The She'eilah, even assuming that ...

1. ... a T'reifah animal can survive is that - a fish, which is not as strong as an animal, perhaps cannot survive, in which case it will be subject to Tum'as Ochlin immediately.

2. ... a T'reifah animal cannot survive is that - perhaps a fish is better than an animal in this regard, since there is no Din of T'reifus (regarding the Isur Achilah.

(d)The outcome of the She'eilah is - Teiku .

4)

(a)On what grounds does Rebbi Yochanan forbid the Cheilev of a stillborn animal?

(b)How do we reconcile Rebbi Yochanan with Rebbi Yehudah above, who permits it?

(c)What does Resh Lakish say?

(d)What is his reason?

4)

(a)Rebbi Yochanan forbids the Cheilev of a stillborn animal - because, in is opinion, it is the birth that renders it an independent animal, whose Cheilev is Asur, and ...

(b)... even Rebbi Yehudah only permits it - as long as it is still inside the mother's womb.

(c)Resh Lakish however - permits the Cheilev of a stillborn animal like that of a Chayah ...

(d)... because he considers the criterion to be - reaching the age of nine months (five months in the case of a small animal) in its mother's womb.

5)

(a)In the second Lashon, Rabbi Yochanan and Resh Lakish are not speaking about a baby animal of less than nine months (or five months in the case of a small animal). What would they then both hold in that case?

(b)Over which case are they then arguing?

(c)Both Rebbi Yochanan and Resh Lakish maintain their previous opinions. What is then the reason of ...

1. ... Rebbi Yochanan?

2. ... Resh Lakish?

5)

(a)In the second Lashon, Rabbi Yochanan and Resh Lakish are not speaking about a baby animal of less than nine months (or five months in the case of a small animal) - because they both hold there that - the animal is not considered alive, and the Cheilev is permitted ...

(b)... and they are arguing - over Cheilev that one cuts from a ninth-month Ubar whilst it is still inside its mother's womb.

(c)Both Rebbi Yochanan and Resh Lakish maintain their previous opinions, and the reason of ...

1. ... Rebbi Yochanan is - because according to him, the criterion for a fetus being called an independent animal is reaching the age of nine months (five months in the case of a small animal).

2. ... Resh Lakish - is a combination of nine months in its mother's womb and the birth.

6)

(a)Rebbi Yochanan queries Resh Lakish from a Beraisa. What does the Tana learn from the fact that the Torah inserts the Cheilev and the two kidneys among the parts of an Asham that are brought on the Mizbe'ach? What does it preclude even with regard to female Korbanos, to which Sh'lil is applicable?

(b)How does Rebbi Yochanan query Resh Lakish from there?

(c)What does Resh Lakish answer?

(d)In the second Lashon, it is Resh Lakish who asked Rebbi Yochanan that if, as he maintains, a ninth-month Sh'lil is considered alive, why does the Pasuk preclude its Cheilev? What did Rebbi Yochanan reply? What precedent does he cite, where the Torah forbids what ought logically to be permitted?

6)

(a)Rebbi Yochanan queries Resh Lakish from a Beraisa. From the fact that the Torah inserts the Cheilev and the two kidneys among the parts of an Asham that are brought on the Mizbe'ach, the Tana - precludes the Cheilev of a Sh'lil of female Korbanos from the Chalavim that are brought on the Mizbe'ach.

(b)Rebbi Yochanan queries Resh Lakish - in that if the Cheilev of a Sh'lil is not considered Cheilev, then why does the Torah need to preclude it from the Din of the Chalavim of Kodshim.

(c)To which Resh Lakish answers that - this Pasuk is actually the source on which his opinion is based.

(d)In the second Lashon, it is Resh Lakish who asked Rebbi Yochanan that if, as he maintains, a ninth-month Sh'lil is considered alive, why did the Pasuk preclude its Cheilev? To which Rebbi Yochanan replied that - the Torah is coming to teach us, that in the same way as the Torah forbids an animal of less than eight days to be brought on the Mizbe'ach, even though biologically it ought to be permitted, so too, does it forbid the Cheilev of an unborn Sh'lil.

7)

(a)In connection with the previous Machlokes, what does Rebbi Ami say about a case where one Shechts a T'reifah and finds a ninth-month Ubar inside it, according to ...

1. ... Rebbi Yochanan?

2. ... Resh Lakish?

(b)What are there respective reasons?

(c)On what grounds does Rava permits the Ubar even according to Resh Lakish?

7)

(a)In connection with the previous Machlokes, Rebbi Ami rules that if one Shechts a T'reifah and finds a ninth-month Ubar inside it, according to ...

1. ... Rebbi Yochanan - it is permitted via its mother's Shechitah.

2. ... Resh Lakish - it is forbidden ...

(b)... because neither does its own Shechitah permit it (since it is not considered an independent animal), nor does that of its mother, since it is a T'reifah.

(c)Rava permits the Ubar even according to Resh Lakish - because even though a ninth-month baby is permitted via the Shechitah of its mother, it is also permitted via its own Shechitah (Arba'ah Simanim Achsher beih Rachmana) wherever necessary (as we learned earlier).

75b----------------------------------------75b

8)

(a)Rav Chisda rules that if someone finds a ninth-month Ubar inside a Shechted T'reifah, it requires Shechitah. What does he say about the obligation to give the Zero'a, Lechayayim and Keivah (the right foreleg, the cheeks and the stomach) to the Kohen?

(b)What problem does Rava have with Rav Chisda's final statement 've'Im Meis, Tahor mi'Letamei be'Masa'?

(c)Rav Chisda counters Rava's Kashya with a Beraisa? What does the Beraisa say?

8)

(a)Rav Chisda rules that if someone finds a ninth-month Ubar inside a Shechted T'reifah, it requires Shechitah - and it is also subject to the Mitzvah of Zero'a, Lechayayim and Keivah (giving the right foreleg, the cheeks and the stomach to the Kohen).

(b)The problem Rava has with Rav Chisda's final statement 've'Im Meis, Tahor mi'Letamei be'Masa' is that - his first two rulings seem to follow the opinion of Rebbi Meir, and the last one, that of the Rabbanan.

(c)Rav Chisda counters Rava's Kashya with a Beraisa - which issues the same three rulings as he did (see Mesores ha'Shas), in which case, Rava might just as well ask the same Kashya on the Beraisa.

9)

(a)Rava refuted Rav Chisda's Kashya however, by establishing the Beraisa where the Ubar was already dead. How does that solve the problem? Who is then the author of the entire Beraisa?

(b)Then why can we not also establish Rav Chisda in the same way?

(c)So how does Rav Chisda reconcile his first two statements with the third one? According to which Tana is he speaking?

9)

(a)Rava refuted Rav Chisda's Kashya by establishing the Beraisa where the Ubar was already dead - in which case the Seifa can also go like Rebbi Meir (who agrees that a dead ninth-month baby becomes permitted via the mother's Shechitah, as we already learned).

(b)We cannot however, establish Rav Chisda in the same way - since Rav Chisda himself did not do so.

(c)Rav Chisda reconciles his first two statements with the third one - by establishing that an Ubar has four Simanim, as we explained earlier, in which case the author of the Reisha can also be the Rabbanan.

10)

(a)What did Rebbi Asi comment when, upon Rebbi Zeira's arrival in Eretz Yisrael, the latter issued the same triple statement as Rav Chisda?

(b)How come Rebbi Asi (who was present when Rebbi Yochanan made that statement) did not know whether Resh Lakish argued with Rebbi Yochanan or not?

10)

(a)When, upon Rebbi Zeira's arrival in Eretz Yisrael, the latter issued the same triple statement as Rav Chisda, Rebbi Asi commented - 'Yeyasher (Kochacha); ve'Chein Amar Rebbi Yochanan'.

(b)Although Rebbi Asi was present when Rebbi Yochanan made this statement, he did not know whether Resh Lakish argued with him or not - because Resh Lakish, who usually made his comments immediately, happened, on this occasion, to be drinking a glass of water as Rebbi Yochanan finished speaking. Consequently, there was a momentary silence. And it was at that moment that Rebbi Asi had to leave the room. Others say that Resh Lakish always took his time before commenting on Rebbi Yochanan's rulings.

11)

(a)How did Rav Kahana explain the Machlokes between Rebbi Shimon Shezuri in our Mishnah (who permits even a five-year old ben Peku'ah plowing in the field with the Shechitah of its mother), and the Tana Kama (who permits a ben Peku'ah even without Shechitah)?

(b)What is the Tana Kama's reason?

(c)What did Abaye say about a Kalut ben Peku'ah that stands on the ground?

(d)What did he say in the second Lashon?

11)

(a)Rav Kahana ascribed the Machlokes between Rebbi Shimon Shezuri in our Mishnah (who permits even a five-year old ben Peku'ah plowing in the field with the Shechitah of its mother) and the Tana Kama (who permits a ben Peku'ah even without Shechitah)) to - whether a ben Peku'ah requires Shechitah once his feet touch the ground (and he walks [the Tana Kama]) or not (Rebbi Shimon Shezuri).

(b)The Tana Kama's reason is - due to a decree that if one permits eating a ben Peku'ah without Shechitah, people might come to permit even regular animals too, without Shechitah.

(c)Abaye however, maintained that - even the Rabbanan will permit a Kalut ben Peku'ah that stands on the ground, without Shechitah, because this is something so unusual (which everybody talks about), that nobody will learn from it to permit other animals without Shechitah.

(d)In the second Lashon - they will only permit a Kalut ben Kelutah ben Peku'ah, because it has two striking features, but not a Kalut ben Peku'ah).

12)

(a)What does Rav Mesharshaya (whom we already discussed earlier) say about a baby that a ben Peku'ah fathers from a regular animal, according to Chananya? What does Chananya say?

(b)Who disagrees with Rav Mesharshaya?

(c)Ze'iri Amar Rebbi Chanina rules like Rebbi Shimon Shezuri, even as far as extending the Heter to Shecht a ben Peku'ah to its offspring, in his name. What does Rebbi Yochanan say?

12)

(a)Rav Mesharshaya - forbids a baby that a ben Peku'ah fathers from a regular animal, according to Chananya (who contends with the seed of the father), because it is as if it has only one Siman from the mother, since the one that it inherited from its father has already been Shechted (as we discussed earlier).

(b)Those who hold Arba'ah Simanim Achshar beih Rachmana - disagree with Rav Mesharshaya's and permit it.

(c)Ze'iri Amar Rebbi Chanina rules like Rebbi Shimon Shezuri, even as far as extending the Heter to Shecht a ben Peku'ah to its offspring, in his name. According to Rebbi Yochanan however - Rebbi Shimon Shezuri only permits the ben Peku'ah itself, but not its off-spring.

13)

(a)What did Rav Ashi rule in a case where a wolf attacked a ben Peku'ah and left it a T'reifah?

(b)Why was the owner surprised?

(c)What was the latter's final argument to prove that the Halachah is like Rebbi Shimon Shezuri?

(d)Rav Ashi countered the owner by quoting Rebbi Yonasan (or Rebbi Yochanan). What does Rebbi Yonasan say with regard to ruling like Rebbi Shimon Shezuri?

13)

(a)In a case where a wolf attacked a ben Peku'ah and left it a T'reifah - Rav Ashi instructed the owner to Shecht it immediately.

(b)The owner was surprised - because even Rebbi Yochanan agrees that Rebbi Shimon Shezuri permits a ben Peku'ah (even after it has been born) with its mother's Shechitah, and Ravin bar Chanina ... Amar Rebbi Chanina rules like Rebbi Shimon Shezuri ...

(c)... and what's more, he concluded - the Halachah is always like Rebbi Shimon Shezuri, wherever his name appears.

(d)Rav Ashi countered the owner by quoting Rebbi Yonasan (or Rebbi Yochanan), who states - 'Halachah ke'Rebbi Shimon Shezuri bi'Mesukan u'vi'Terumas Ma'aser shel D'mai'(but not in the other cases where he issues a ruling).

14)

(a)The two cases where the Halachah is like Shimon Shezuri are as follows. In a case where someone who has been sentenced to death announces 'Write a Get for my wife!', on what grounds does the Tana Kama in the Mishnah in T'vul Yom rule that witnesses who heard the man's announcement should write the Get and hand it over (even though he failed to specifically mention the handing over)?

(b)The Tana Kama presents two cases that they added to the above, one of them is where the husband is about to embark on an overseas trip (a hazard in those days). What is the other?

(c)What did Rebbi Shimon Shezuri ...

1. ... add to the list?

2. ... say, in the Mishnah in D'mai, about T'rumas Ma'aser shel D'mai that falls back into the original batch (which is a fraction more than the one in a hundred that is required for Terumah to become Bateil)?

14)

(a)The two cases where the Halachah is like Shimon Shezuri are as follows. In a case where someone who has been sentenced to death announces 'Write a Get for my wife!', the Tana Kama in the Mishnah in T'vul Yom rules that witnesses who heard the man's announcement should write the Get and hand it over - because, even though he failed to mention the handing over, it is obvious that this is what he meant, and failed to say only on account of his situation.

(b)The Tana Kama adds two cases that they added to the above, one of them is where the husband is about to embark on an overseas trip (a hazard in those days); the other - where he was about to join a long distance caravan.

(c)Rebbi Shimon Shezuri ...

1. ... added to the list - someone who is dangerously ill.

2. ... ruled, in the Mishnah in D'mai, that if T'rumas Ma'aser shel D'mai falls back into the original batch (which is a fraction more than the one in a hundred that is required for T'rumah to become Bateil) - it is permitted (even during the week) if one asked the Am ha'Aretz from whom one purchased it whether he Ma'asered it or not, and he replied in the affirmative.

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