How did the Kohen Gadol get to bein habadim to put the ketores or blood if the badim extended into the paroches? Did he just push the paroches aside, step over/under the badim?
Gershon Dubin
I must admit that the question occurred to me too, but as often happens when learning Daf ha'Yomi, I did not have the time to go into it.
Looking at your question however, it occurred to me that the problem only existed in the time of the first Beis ha'Mikdash, when the Aron stood in its place. But that is a fallacy, because in the time of the first Beis ha'Mikdash, the Kohen Gadol entered the Kodesh ha'Kodoshim via the single curtain that covered the entrance (which had probably been opened to allow him to enter unimpeded). Now the entrance was situated in the middle of the Amah Traksin (the wall that divided between the Kodesh and the Kodesh ha'Kodoshim). That being the case, the Kohen Gadol entered the Kodesh ha'Kodoshim at a point that was between the two Badim and walked straight to the Aron which was directly in front of him.
Incidently, it is clear that the two Badim only protruded from the curtain due to the poles having miraculously grown longer, in order to demonstrate Hash-m's love towards K'lal Yisrael. It would therefore not surprise me at all to learn that the moment the curtain was opened to allow the Kohen to pass through, they reverted to their original size.
be'Virchas Kol Tuv.
Eliezer Chrysler
The Tosefta (2:11) vindicates Reb Gershon Dubin's question. According to the Tosfefta, when the Kohen Gadol reaches Bein ha'Badim, he "shoves the Paroches with his waist," after which he places the Machatah between the Badim. The TOSFOS RID explains that the Tosefta is answering Dubin's question, and it is explaining how the Kohen Gadol gets past the Badim.
However, the Tosfos Rid puzzles why this would be necessary at all. The Tosefta, which discusses the two Parochos and uses the words of the Mishnah on 52b, must be discussing the Second Temple, as our Gemara concludes with regard to the Mishnah. The Kohen Gadol should not have had to push away the Paroches since there were no Badim in the Second Temple to obstruct his entry!
(The CHAZON YECHEZKEL, perhaps due to this difficulty, offers a different explanation for this Tosefta. He says that the Tosefta means that the Kohen Gadol would push the Paroches with his waist while walking between the two Parochos, in order to prevent them from being singed by the coals. This explanation is somewhat forced, though. First, the Yerushalmi says that while passing between the Parochos the Kohen Gadol would push the Parochos with both of his elbows to avoid singing them, not with his waist. Second, how can the Kohen Gadol keep both Parochos away from the coals by using his waist? Third, the Tosefta mentions shoving the Paroches (singular). Fourth, and most importantly, the Tosefta says that the shoving is done after the Kohen Gadol walks along the Parochos inside the Kodesh ha'Kodashim, immediately before placing the coals between the Badim.)
I would suggest the following, novel, answer to the question of the Tosfos Rid. Perhaps there were markings on the floor of the Kodesh ha'Kodashim in the Second Temple that showed where the Aron and Badim stood in the first Mikdash. Out of respect, the Kohen Gadol would avoid walking where the Aron and Badim used to be. If so, he would push aside the Paroches to walk past the place where the Badim had been even when he placed coals in the Second Temple. (He would not have to step on the site of the Aron while placing the coals or Ketores on the stone, since he could easily reach over 3/4 of an Amah and place them there.)
Best wishes,
M. Kornfeld
(a) what was the dimension of bain habadim, that allows you to assume that the kohen gadol entered thru the curtain (center split, right, or left) directly into bain habadim?
thank you
(b) By the way, in the Mishkan, how did the Kohen Godol get through the Poroches? Did he enter at one side, or was the Poroches rolled up maybe (if so, by whom) or he pushed underneath (doesn't seem a very respectful entry)?
Yes, the Kodesh HaKodoshim in the Mishkan was only 10 Amos long, and presumably the same Badim were present in the Bayis Rishon.
Kol Tuv,
Meir Eliezer Bergman
(a) I do not fully grasp the problem. The Badim were two and a half Amos apart, and stretched all the way to the entrance, so that when the curtain was hooked open (just as most commentaries explain with regard to the two curtains in the second Beis ha'Mikdash), the Kohen Gadol would only have needed to place himself in the middle two and a half Amos, and walk straight forward until he arrived at the Aron.
(b) Seeing as the Paroches was hooked on to four columns, one may assume that it too, was folded back on itself and held open by means of hooks on the first column, in the same way as it was according to R. Yossi in the second Beis ha'Mikdash, where there was only one curtain.
(c) 'Who opened it?' is a question you might ask in all the cases, and the answer (again based on conjecture) is that a Kohen opened it earlier whilst he was still permitted to be there. As a matter of fact, this would have been more problematic in the second Beis ha'Mikdash, where the Kohen would have had to walk in between the two curtains, in order to open the inner curtain on the north side, an area that might have had the Kedushah of the Kodesh Kodshim. But then, if craftsmen were permitted to enter the Kodesh Kodshim to effect repairs, then why should a Kohen not be allowed to enter it to facilitate the entry of the Kohen Gadol?
Be'Virchas Kol Tuv
Eliezer Chrysler
The marking on the floor was the "Even Shesiyah". This extended not only under the place where the Aron was, but also under the area between the Badim. This is evident from the Mishnah:
52b Mishnah: "Higi'a l'Aron Nosein Es ha'Machatah Bein Shnei ha'Badim".
53b Mishnah: "valeha haya nosain" on IT (the Even Shesiyah ) he would place the Machatah and Ketores.
E. Kanner
(a) I am not sure that I fully understand your answer, because although it makes sense to say that the Kohen Gadol would not walk on the spot where the Aron stood (why would he need to anyway?), I do not see why he should not on the spot where the Badim had been.
(b) Incidentally, the Makom ha'Aron would not have needed markings, since it was already pre-marked by the Even Shesiyah.
(a) The Badim were an integral, inseparable part of the Aron (see Shemos 25:15). The respect afforded the Aron should be afforded them as well.
(b) That is a very good point. In a previous Daf-Discuss communication, one of the readers also understood that the Even Shesiyah marked the entire area of the Aron. He noted as well that it appears from the Mishnah that the Even Shesiyah extruded to the area "k'Vein ha'Badim" as well.
According to that understanding, it would be even more logical to assume that the Kohen did not want to walk on the area beneath where the Badim were (which was part of the Even Shesiyah). Since the Aron had been on part of the Even Shesiyah, it was not appropriate for the Kohen Gadol to walk on any part of the Even Shesiyah.
Best wishes,
M. Kornfeld