IS A MO'AVIS PERMITTED?
Doeg asked like above. They were silent. Doeg was about to announce that David was forbidden.
Question: Here it says "Amasha, the son of`... Yisra ha'Yisraeli who had Bi'ah with Avigayil Bas Nachash". Elsewhere he is called "Yisra ha'Yishmaeli"!
Answer (Rava): This teaches that he girded his sword like a Yishmaeli and said 'whoever does not accept my tradition will be pierced with a sword. I learned from Shmuel ha'Navi that an Amoni and a Mo'avi are forbidden, but not an Amonis or Mo'avis.'
Question: One is not believed to teach a law in such a case!
(R. Aba): If a Chacham teaches a law relevant to a case at hand (Tosfos - that affects himself), we heed him only if he already taught the law before.
Answer: Yisra was believed, since Shmuel and his Beis Din were around (the law was easily verifiable).
Question: Do'eg's question remains (the women should have gone out to greet the women)!
Answer (Chachamim of Bavel): "The honor of a Bas Melech is (to stay) inside" (women should not go out even to greet women).
Chachamim of Eretz Yisrael: We learn this from " ... Where is your wife Sarah?" (It is praiseworthy that she stayed in the tent.)
The following Tana'im also argue about this (the source that a Mo'avis is permitted).
(Beraisa - R. Yehudah): An Amoni is forbidden, but not an Amonis; a Mo'avi, but not a Mo'avis;
R. Shimon says, "Because they did not go out ..." - it is the way of a man ...
(Rava): "You opened my binds" - David said to Hash-m, two binds that were on me, you opened - Rus the Mo'avis, and No'oma the Amonis (the mother of Rechavam, who succeeded Shlomo).
(Rava): "... Your wonders and thoughts are upon us" - not upon me.
This teaches that Rechavam sat in David's lap, and David told him 'these two verses were said for me and you.'
(Rava): "Then I said, I have come; it is written in a Sefer about me" - David said, when I was anointed, I thought that my grandeur was just starting; I did not realize, it was already written in the Torah about me.
It says "that were found" regarding Lot's daughters (who gave birth to Amon and Mo'av), like it says, "I found David my servant".
THE DAUGHTER OF A CONVERTED AMONI
(Ula, citing R. Yochanan): The daughter of a converted Amoni may marry a Kohen.
Question (Rava bar Ula): Like whom is this?
It is unlike R. Yehudah, for he says that a convert's daughter is like a Chalal's daughter!
Answer #1: It is like R. Yosi.
Objection: This is obvious! R. Yosi permits even the daughter of two converts to a Kohen!
Suggestion: Perhaps that applies to converts that may marry Yisraelim, but not to forbidden converts.
Question: What is the source to make such a distinction?
Answer: We learn from the daughter of a Kohen Gadol from a widow.
Objection: We cannot learn from there, for the Bi'ah is forbidden!
Answer: (This does not cause the Isur!) A Chalal's daughter is forbidden even though the Bi'ah was permitted!
Objection: We cannot learn from a Chalal, since he himself was conceived through sin!
Answer: A Kohen Gadol was not conceived through sin! We may learn from a Tzad ha'Shavah (what is common to both). Each case (a Kohen Gadol married to a widow, and Chalal) has something not found in the other. The common side is that they are unlike the majority of the congregation, and their daughters are forbidden to Kohanim. We learn that the same applies to an Amoni's daughter!
Rejection: We cannot learn. A Kohen Gadol to a widow and a Chalal both involve sin (but no sin led to an Amoni's daughter)!
Answer #2 (Rava bar Ula): Perhaps you teach about an Amoni who married a Bas Yisrael. Even though Bi'ah is forbidden, the daughter may marry a Kohen.
Answer (Ula): Correct! The following shows that R. Yochanan discussed such a case.
(Ravin, citing R. Yochanan): The daughter of a converted Amoni or Mitzri Sheni is permitted (to a Kohen);
(Reish Lakish): She is forbidden.
Reish Lakish learns from a Kohen Gadol and a widow.
The following shows why R. Yochanan permits.
Version #1 (R. Zakai - Beraisa): "He will marry a virgin from his nations" - this includes a Mechunah convert (her parents come from the same nation).
Version #1A - R. Yochanan: I expound "me'Amav (from his nations)" to permit a virgin that comes from two nations, and you learn only Mechunah?!
Question: What are the two nations?
Suggestion: An Amoni married an Amonis. These are considered two nations because the men are permitted and the women are forbidden.
Rejection: This is like R. Zakai (but R. Yochanan disagreed)!
Answer: Rather, an Amoni (or Mitzri Sheni) married a Bas Yisrael.
Version #1B - R. Yochanan: I expound "me'Amav" to permit a virgin that comes from two nations, and one of those nations has in it two nations, and you learn only Mechunah?!
Question: According to this version, how does R. Yochanan learn that a Mitzri Sheni's daughter is permitted? ("Me'Amav" does not discuss Mitzriyim, for it is not like two nations; men and women are forbidden equally.)
Suggestion: He learns from an Amoni who married a Bas Yisrael.
Rejection: We cannot learn from Amonim, for (even if she were considered an Amonis,) the females are permitted!
Suggestion: The child of a Mitzri Sheni from a Mitzris Shenis is permitted, even though females (Mitzriyos) are forbidden. This shows that this factor is irrelevant!
Objection: There, Bi'ah is permitted!
Answer: The child of an Amoni from a Bas Yisrael is permitted even though Bi'ah is forbidden! We learn from a Tzad ha'Shavah of these two.
Rav Yosef: I had heard Rav Yehudah say 'Amav' - "meAmav" and I did not understand. (Now, I understand.)
Version #2 - Rav Shmuel bar Yehudah - (R. Zakai - Beraisa): An Amonis is permitted. Her son from an Amoni is forbidden. Her daughter from an Amoni is permitted (the entire Beraisa will be explained);
This applies after they converted; but her daughter from an Amoni is forbidden.
R. Yochanan: Do not teach this in the Beis Medrash!
I agree that an Amonis is permitted - "Amoni", not an Amonis;
I agree that her son from an Amoni is forbidden, since he is an Amoni;
Question: You said 'Her daughter from an Amoni is permitted' - to whom?
It is not to Yisrael. If her mother is permitted, all the more so the daughter (she was born in Kedushah)!
Answer: She is permitted to a Kohen.
Question: You said 'This applies after they converted; but her daughter from an Amoni is forbidden' - to what does this refer?
If an Amoni married an Amonis, that is a convert Mechunah (she is Kesherah)!
Answer: Rather, an Amoni married a Bas Yisrael (and you forbid).
R. Yochanan: Do not teach this in the Beis Medrash (it is wrong)!
IS A MITZRIS FORBIDDEN?
(Mishnah): A Mitzri or Edomi is forbidden ...
Question: How do Chachamim challenge R. Shimon's Kal va'Chomer?
Answer #1 (Rabah bar bar Chanah): Arayos disprove the Kal va'Chomer. They are forbidden only until three generations (the Torah permits a man to his great granddaughter), yet Arayos through males and females (e.g. the daughters of one's son and daughter) are forbidden!
Question: We cannot challenge from Arayos, for they are Chayavei Kerisos!
Answer: We learn from Mamzerim. Even a Mamzeres is forbidden, even though this is not Chayavei Kerisos!
Question: You cannot learn from Mamzerim, for all generations are forbidden!
Answer: We learn from a Tzad ha'Shavah. In Arayos and Mamzerim, both males and females are forbidden. The same applies to Mitzriyim.
Objection: The Tzad ha'Shavah is invalid, since both sources involve Chayavei Kerisos (a Mamzer results from Kares)!
Answer #2 (to Question (c)): Rather, Chachamim ask from a Chalal who results from Chayavei Aseh, like R. Eliezer ben Yakov.
Question: What was R. Shimon's answer 'No, rather...'?
Answer: I do not hold like R. Eliezer ben Yakov (so I hold that the Kal va'Chomer is valid). You, who (reject the Kal va'Chomer because you) hold like him should know that I have a tradition to permit the females.
(Beraisa - R. Shimon): I received my law on tradition. Also, the verse supports me - "Sons" are forbidden, but not daughters.
(Beraisa - R. Shimon): "Sons" are forbidden, but not daughters;
R. Yehudah says, "Banim who will be born to them ..." - the verse ascribes (the Isur) to birth (to the mother. If she were permitted, also her children would be!)