12TH CYCLE DEDICATION
NEDARIM 16-19 - Two weeks of Dafyomi study material have been dedicated by Ms. Estanne Abraham-Fawer to honor the eighth Yahrzeit of her father, Rav Mordechai ben Eliezer Zvi (Rabbi Morton Weiner) Z'L, who passed away on 18 Teves 5760. May the merit of supporting and advancing Dafyomi study -- which was so important to him -- during the weeks of his Yahrzeit serve as an Iluy for his Neshamah.

1)

(a)Our Mishnah states 'Yesh Neder b'Soch Neder'. What about 'Shevu'ah b'Soch Shevu'ah'?

(b)The Tana gives as an example of the former 'Hareini Nazir im Ochal, Hareini Nazir im Ochal'. Seeing as the same would have applied had he said 'Hareini Nazir, Hareini Nazir', why did the Tana not state the more simple case?

(c)What are the ramifications of the statement 'Yesh Neder b'Soch Neder'?

(d)What does the phrase mean?

1)

(a)Our Mishnah states 'Yesh Neder b'Soch Neder - v'Ein Shevu'ah b'Soch Shevu'ah'.

(b)The Tana gives as an example of the former 'Hareini Nazir im Ochal, Hareini Nazir im Ochal'. Despite the fact that the same would have applied had he said 'Hareini Nazir, Hareini Nazir', the Tana did not state the more simple case - because the case that he did state balances with that of Shevu'ah, which can only appear as 'Shevu'ah she'Lo Ochal, Shevu'ah she'Lo Ochal'. Note, that this is also the answer given by the Gemara, according to those who cite this Kashya in the text, as we shall see shortly.

(c)The ramifications of the statement 'Yesh Neder b'Soch Neder' are - that the Noder practices one thirty-day period of Nezirus, brings the relevant Korbanos and then practices a second thirty-day period.

(d)Despite the fact that he did not declare the second Neder then, it takes effect - because in reality the first and the second Nezirus take effect simultaneously, only since it is not possible to practice them simultaneously, the second one hangs in abeyance until it is able to take effect.

2)

(a)Might 'Yesh Neder b'Soch Neder' also imply that if someone declares two Nedarim on a certain food which he subsequently eats, he receives two sets of Malkus?

(b)What is the reason for the principle 'Ein Shevu'ah b'Soch Shevu'ah'?

(c)Then why do we say 'Yesh Neder b'Soch Neder'?

2)

(a)'Yesh Neder b'Soch Neder' cannot incorporate a case where someone declares two Nedarim on a certain food which he subsequently eats, for which he will now receives two sets of Malkus - because we find two sets of Malkus for one act that stems from one Pasuk.

(b)The reason for the principle 'Ein Shevu'ah b'Soch Shevu'ah' is - because having accepted the first Shevu'ah, he is already 'Mushba v'Omed me'Har Sinai'.

(c)We nevertheless say 'Yesh Neder b'Soch Neder' - because of the Pasuk 'Nazir Lehazir', as we shall see shortly.

3)

(a)According to some texts, we pose two Kashyos (on the case of Neder b'Soch Neder 'Hareini Nazir im Ochal, Hareini Nazir im Ochal'): One of them is why the Tana needs to connect Nezirus to Achilah (which we already discussed in our Mishnah). What is the second Kashya?

(b)Why would he only receive two Malkus if there was a warning between the two k'Zeisim?

3)

(a)According to some texts, we pose two Kashyos (on the example of 'Hareini Nazir im Ochal, Hareini Nazir im Ochal'): One of them is why the Tana needs to connect Nezirus to Achilah (which we already discussed in our Mishnah). The second Kashya is - having connected them, why does the Tana need to repeat the phrase? Based on the Sugya in Shevu'os, someone who eats a number of k'Zeisim, is Chayav for each k'Zayis. Consequently, one would be Chayav two (or more) Malkus, one for each k'Zayis that he ate (provided there was a warning for each k'Zayis, as we shall now see) even without accepting a second Nezirus.

(b)The Nazir will receive two Malkus only if there is a warning between the two k'Zeisim - just like we find with every Chiyuv Malkus, which require a new warning between each k'Zayis in order to receive a second Malkus (and in the case of Korban, a separate Ha'alamah).

4)

(a)According to Rav Huna, 'Yesh Neder b'Soch Neder' only pertains to a case where he said 'Hareini Nazir ha'Yom, Hareini Nazir l'Machar'. Why is that?

(b)Why should we not say that, seeing as it is only the last day of his second Nezirus that is due to take effect, the Nezirus is Batel?

(c)What does Shmuel say?

4)

(a)According to Rav Huna, 'Yesh Neder b'Soch Neder' only pertains to a case where he said 'Hareini Nazir ha'Yom, Hareini Nazir l'Machar' - because then, since the thirty-first day takes effect, the other twenty-nine days follow automatically.

(b)We do not say that seeing as it is only the last day of his second Nezirus that is due to take effect, the Nezirus is Batel - because of the ruling in Maseches Nazir, that if someone undertakes to be a Nazir for one day, he is obligated to keep a full thirty-day Nezirus.

(c)According to Shmuel - even if he says 'Hareini Nazir ha'Yom, Hareini Nazir ha'Yom', the second Nezirus will take effect after the termination of the first.

5)

(a)According to Rav Huna, instead of continuing 'Ein Shevu'ah b'Soch Shevu'ah', the Tana of our Mishnah could just as well have said 'Ein Neder b'Soch Neder' (with reference to where he accepted both periods of Nezirus to run concurrently). How does Rav Huna explain the fact that the Tana moved from Neder to Shevu'ah (unnecessarily)?

(b)How might we ask the same Kashya on Shmuel?

(c)Then why do we not do so? Why is the Kashya restricted to Rav Huna?

5)

(a)According to Rav Huna, instead of continuing 'Ein Shevu'ah b'Soch Shevu'ah', the Tana of our Mishnah could just as well have said 'Ein Neder b'Soch Neder' (referring to when he accepted both periods of Nezirus to run concurrently) - Rav Huna has no way of explaining the fact that the Tana moved from Neder to Shevu'ah (unnecessarily) and we remain with a Kashya on him.

(b)We might ask the same Kashya on Shmuel: that instead of continuing 'Ein Shevu'ah b'Soch Shevu'ah', the Tana of our Mishnah could just as well have said 'Ein Neder b'Soch Neder' - with reference to where the Noder said 'Konam Alai Kikar Zeh, Konam Alai Kikar Zeh', in which case, the second Neder will not take effect (because it is only in the case of Nezirus, where the two Nedarim become effective at different times, that we hold 'Yesh Neder b'Soch Neder').

(c)The reason that we do not ask on Shmuel is - because the Kashya on Rav Huna is not why the Tana moves from Neder to Shevu'ah (as we thought it was), but why the Tana states categorically 'Ein Neder b'Soch Neder' (before differentiating between Nedarim and Shevu'os), leading us to believe that there is no such thing as a Neder b'Soch Neder (even by Nezirus). And that is a Kashya that one cannot ask on Shmuel, because by giving the only example as the case of Nezirus, he has indicated that Konam is precluded from the principle.

17b----------------------------------------17b

6)

(a)'Yesh Neder b'Soch Neder' and 'Ein Shevu'ah b'Soch Shevu'ah' must of course speak in equivalent cases. Assuming that 'Hareini Nazir ha'Yom, Hareini Nazir l'Machar' is equivalent to 'Shevu'ah she'Lo Ochal Te'einim, Shevu'ah she'Lo Ochal Anavim', what do we initially believe to be the equivalent of 'Hareini Nazir ha'Yom, Hareini Nazir ha'Yom'?

(b)Why does this pose a Kashya on Rav Huna?

(c)How will Rav Huna resolve this? How will he establish the case of 'Ein Shevu'ah b'Soch Shevu'ah'?

(d)What is the basic difference between our initial interpretation of 'Ein Shevu'ah b'Soch Shevu'ah', and the interpretation of Rav Huna?

6)

(a)'Yesh Neder b'Soch Neder' and 'Ein Shevu'ah b'Soch Shevu'ah' must of course speak in equivalent cases. Assuming that 'Hareini Nazir ha'Yom, Hareini Nazir l'Machar' is equivalent to 'Shevu'ah she'Lo Ochal Te'einim, Shevu'ah she'Lo Ochal Anavim' - we initially believe the equivalent case of 'Hareini Nazir ha'Yom, Hareini Nazir ha'Yom' to be 'Shevu'ah she'Lo Ochal Te'einim, Shevu'ah she'Lo Ochal Te'einim'.

(b)This poses a Kashya on Rav Huna - because our Mishnah cannot constitute the former (since there is no reason why, in the case of 'Hareini Nazir ha'Yom, Hareini Nazir l'Machar', the second Shevu'ah should not be effective). Consequently, it must be the latter 'Shevu'ah she'Lo Ochal Te'einim, Shevu'ah she'Lo Ochal Te'einim'. Neder b'Soch Neder will then constitute 'Hareini Nazir ha'Yom, Hareini Nazir ha'Yom', a Kashya on Rav Huna, who maintains there 'Ein Neder b'Soch Neder.

(c)Rav Huna resolves this Kashya - by establishing the case of 'Ein Shevu'ah b'Soch Shevu'ah' where he said 'Shevu'ah she'Lo Ochal Te'einim, Shevu'ah she'Lo Ochal Te'einim va'Anavim', which he considers the equivalent of 'Hareini Nazir ha'Yom, Hareini Nazir l'Machar'.

(d)The basic difference between our initial interpretation of 'Ein Shevu'ah b'Soch Shevu'ah', and that of Rav Huna is - that whereas the former followed the Din (i.e. in the case of 'Hareini Nazir ha'Yom, Hareini Nazir l'Machar', the second Nezirus, which begins only after the termination of the first, is totally independent of it, and is therefore similar to 'Shevu'ah she'Lo Ochal Te'einim, Shevu'ah she'Lo Ochal Anavim'), the latter follows the Lashon (i.e. according to the Noder's words, the second term of Nezirus begins already on the second day of the first term, so that they intermingle, and is therefore similar to 'Shevu'ah she'Lo Ochal Te'einim, Shevu'ah she'Lo Ochal Te'einim va'Anavim').

7)

(a)What does Rabah say about someone who swears first that he will not eat figs, then that he will not eat figs and grapes, should he eat figs, separate a Korban for having contravened the first Shevu'ah, and then eat grapes?

(b)What can we infer from there?

(c)What does Rav Huna say?

7)

(a)Rabah says that someone who swears first that he will not eat figs and then that he will not eat figs and grapes, should he eat figs, separate a Korban for having contravened the first Shevu'ah, and then eat grapes - he is Patur from bringing a Korban for eating grapes, because it is a Chatzi Shi'ur (he only contravened half of the second Neder).

(b)We can infer from there - that the second Neder is valid (because he holds 'Shevu'ah Chal al Shevu'ah' [or 'Ein Shevu'ah b'Soch Shevu'ah'] with a Kollel - since it is valid on the figs, it is also valid on the figs).

(c)Rav Huna holds 'Ein Shevu'ah Chal al Shevu'ah' even with a Kollel.

8)

(a)The problem with the previous explanation in Rav Huna is that just as in the case of 'Ein Shevu'ah b'Soch Shevu'ah', the second Shevu'ah cannot take effect, due to the fact that he has already sworn on figs, so too, should the second Nezirus not take effect, since he has already accepted them in his first Nezirus? How do we resolve this problem?

(b)What does Rabah now hold?

(c)On what grounds does Rav Huna disagree with Rabah?

(d)In fact, in the equivalent case ('Hareini Nazir ha'Yom, Hareini Nazir l'Machar'), the Tana rules 'Yesh Neder b'Soch Neder'. Why, if not for the time factor, would we say there too 'Ein Neder b'Soch Neder'? What makes the two cases similar?

8)

(a)The problem with the previous explanation in Rav Huna is that just as in the case of 'Ein Shevu'ah b'Soch Shevu'ah', the second Shevu'ah cannot take effect, due to the fact that he has already sworn on figs, so too, should the second Nezirus not take effect during the first twenty-nine days, since he has already accepted them in his first Nezirus. We resolve this problem - by establishing the case of 'Te'einim va'Anavim' to mean figs and grapes together (which were not included in the first Shevu'ah).

(b)Rabah now holds - that, since the Shevu'ah is valid with regard to the grapes, it is also valid with regard to the figs (not because of 'Kolel').

(c)Rav Huna disagrees with Rabah - because, since the Shevu'ah cannot be valid with regard to the figs, it is not valid with regard to the grapes either (since he did not swear on the grapes by themselves).

(d)In fact, in the equivalent case ('Hareini Nazir ha'Yom, Hareini Nazir l'Machar'), the Tana rules 'Yesh Neder b'Soch Neder'. If not for the time factor, we would say there too 'Ein Neder b'Soch Neder' - because, just as in the case of the figs and the grapes, the Noder intended twenty-nine of the days of both sets of Nezirus to run concurrently (because we go after the Lashon, as we explained earlier).

9)

(a)What does the Beraisa say about someone who, after declaring two sets of Nezirus, counted the first one, separated his Korban and then had the first Neder annulled?

(b)Why do we think that the Tana must be speaking when he undertook to keep the two sets of Nezirus concurrently?

(c)Why does this Beraisa pose a problem on Rav Huna, in view of Rava, who will teach us later that, despite the principle 'Ein Shevu'ah Chal al Shevu'ah', the moment he has the first Shevu'ah annulled, the second one takes effect immediately?

9)

(a)The Beraisa rules that someone who, after declaring two sets of Nezirus, counted the first one, separated his Korban and then had the first Neder annulled - has fulfilled his second Neder with the first one (meaning that he is Patur from keeping the second Neder).

(b)We think that the Tana must be speaking when he undertook to keep the two sets of Nezirus concurrently - because otherwise, why would he have fulfilled the second set upon annuling the first?

(c)This Beraisa poses a problem on Rav Huna, in spite of Rava, who will teach us later that, despite the principle 'Ein Shevu'ah Chal al Shevu'ah', the moment he has the first Shevu'ah annulled, the second one takes effect immediately - because we do not yet know about Rava's Chidush.

10)

(a)In answer to the previous Kashya on Rav Huna, we establish the Beraisa when he said 'Hareini Nazir ha'Yom, Hareini Nazir l'Machar'. How will Rav Huna then explain the statement 'Alsah Lo Sheniyah ba'Rishonah' (like we asked earlier)?

(b)Alternatively, the Tana speaks when he said neither 'Hareini Nazir ha'Yom, Hareini Nazir l'Machar' nor 'Hareini Nazir ha'Yom, Hareini Nazir ha'Yom'. Then what is the case? What did he say?

(c)In this last case, why will both sets of Nezirus take effect simultaneously?

10)

(a)In answer to the previous Kashya on Rav Huna, we establish the Beraisa when he said 'Hareini Nazir ha'Yom, Hareini Nazir l'Machar', and Rav Huna will explain the statement 'Alsah Lo Sheniyah ba'Rishonah' (like we asked earlier) - with reference to the first twenty nine days only (leaving him obligated to fulfill the thirtieth).

(b)Alternatively, the Tana speaks when he (said neither 'Hareini Nazir ha'Yom, Hareini Nazir l'Machar' nor 'Hareini Nazir ha'Yom, Hareini Nazir ha'Yom', but) - when he accepted the two sets of Nezirus simultaneously ('Harei Alai Shnei Neziros').

(c)In this last case, both sets of Nezirus would take effect simultaneously (even according to Rav Huna) - because there is no reason for one of them to take effect before the other.

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