KIDUSHIN 51 - Dedicated by a Talmid of Rabbi Kornfeld in Chicago. May Hashem bestow upon him and his wife Berachah in all their endeavors, and Yiddishe Nachas and joy from their dear children.

1)

TWO THINGS THAT HAPPEN AT ONCE (cont.)

(a)

Question (Abaye - Beraisa): If one separates too much Ma'aser, his Peros are permitted, but the Ma'aser is messed up (some is really Chulin. If one separates Terumas Ma'aser from the Ma'aser, perhaps some or all was taken from the Chulin, and cannot become Terumas Ma'aser!)

1.

According to Rabah, we should say that since one cannot take Ma'aser twice, taking extra Ma'aser at once does nothing!

(b)

Answer (Rabah): Ma'aser is different, for it can be taken halfway. One can make half of a fruit Ma'aser. (Therefore, if one takes too much, we consider that the appropriate percentage of every fruit separated becomes Ma'aser).

(c)

Question: (One must tithe animals born in his flock. Every tenth animal that leaves the pen becomes a Korban.) Ma'aser Beheimah cannot be taken halfway, and it cannot be taken twice, but when two are taken at once, it takes effect!

1.

(Rava): If two animals came out together tenth (and eleventh), one is Ma'aser, and the other is the eleventh (i.e. Chulin).

(d)

Answer: Ma'aser Beheimah is different, for it can be taken twice through a mistake.

1.

(Mishnah): If a man mistakenly called the ninth 'tenth', and called the tenth 'ninth', and called the 11th 'tenth', all three are Kadosh.

(e)

Question: (The 40 loaves that accompany) a Korban Todah do not become Kodesh mistakenly, and one cannot be Mekadesh extra loaves, but if one tries to, some become Kodesh! (Presumably, in the coming argument the Halachah follows Chizkiyah against his Talmid R. Yochanan.)

1.

(Chizkiyah): If a Todah was slaughtered with intent to be Mekadesh 80 loaves, 40 of them become Kodesh;

2.

(R. Yochanan): They are not Kodesh.

(f)

Answer: R. Yehoshua ben Levi (it seems that the text should say R. Zeira) explained that if he said '40 of the 80 loaves should become Kodesh', all agree that 40 become Kodesh;

1.

If he said '(even) 40 should not become Kodesh unless all 80 become Kodesh', all agree that none become Kodesh;

2.

They argue in a case when he did not specify. Chizkiyah holds that the extra breads are in case some of the 40 become Pasul (he wants only 40 to become Kedoshim). R. Yochanan holds that he wants all 80 to become Kedoshim.

(g)

Question: Why did Rava say (50b) that the Mishnah is due to Rabah's law? Rava himself holds that Kidushin in which Bi'ah is forbidden (Tosfos - the Kidushin itself forbids her) is not Kidushin!

(h)

Answer: He explained how Rami bar Chama (who holds that such Kidushin is valid) should learn.

2)

KIDUSHIN NOT FIT FOR BI'AH

(a)

(Abaye): Kidushin in which Bi'ah is forbidden (Tosfos - the Kidushin itself forbids her) is Kidushin;

(b)

(Rava): It is not Kidushin;

1.

(Bar Ahina): "When a man will take (Mekadesh) a woman and have Bi'ah with her" teaches that Kidushin must permit Bi'ah.

(c)

(Mishnah): If a man was Mekadesh simultaneously a woman and her daughter, or two sisters, they are not Mekudashos.

(d)

Inference: If he was Mekadesh one of the two women (without specifying which), one is Mekudeshes.

(e)

Question (against Rava): Even though Bi'ah is forbidden, for we do not know which is Mekudeshes (each woman is forbidden to him, lest she is his wife's relative), the Kidushin works!

1.

Counter-question (Rava - Seifa): There was a case of five women, two of whom were sisters... Chachamim ruled that the sisters are not Mekudashos.

2.

Inference: The three strangers (unrelated women) are Mekudashos.

3.

Question: What is the case?

i.

Suggestion: He said 'all of you are Mekudashos to me'.

ii.

Rejection: This is like one who says 'you and the donkey should acquire', which does not work. (Since the donkey cannot acquire, neither does the person. Likewise, since both sisters cannot become Mekudashos, also the strangers do not!)

51b----------------------------------------51b

4.

Answer: Rather, he said 'one of you is Mekudeshes to me', and the Mishnah says that neither sister is (even doubtfully) Mekudeshes!

(f)

Question: The Reisha is unlike Rava, and the Seifa is unlike Abaye!

(g)

Answer #1 (for Abaye): The Mishnah means that if a man was Mekadesh simultaneously a woman and her daughter, or two sisters, they are not Mekudashos;

1.

If he was Mekadesh one of the two women (without specifying which), one is Mekudeshes;

2.

If he said 'I am Mekadesh whichever of you may have Bi'ah with me', neither is Mekudeshes.

3.

A case occurred with five women, two of whom were sisters... he said 'I am Mekadesh whichever of you may have Bi'ah with me.' Chachamim ruled that the sisters are not Mekudashos.

(h)

Answer #2 (for Rava): The Mishnah means that if a man was Mekadesh a woman or her daughter, or one of two sisters, without specifying which, it is as if he was Mekadesh both at the same time. Neither is Mekudeshes;

1.

A case occurred with five women, two of whom were sisters... he said 'I am Mekadesh all of you and one of the sisters.' Chachamim ruled that the sisters are not Mekudashos.

3)

ATTEMPTED PROOFS FOR ABAYE

(a)

(Mishnah): If a man was Mekadesh his daughter to Levi, without specifying which daughter, the Bogros (adult daughters) are not even Safek Mekudashos.

(b)

Inference: The minors (and Na'aros) are (at least Safek) Mekudashos!

(c)

Question (against Rava): The Kidushin forbids Bi'ah (of Levi with each daughter, lest she is his wife's sister), yet it takes effect!

(d)

Answer: The case is, there is only one Bogeres and one minor (or Na'arah).

(e)

Question: It says 'the Bogros (plural)'!

(f)

Answer: It means that whenever this happens, the Bogeres is not Mekudeshes at all.

(g)

Question: If there is only one minor, of course she is Mekudeshes (a man cannot be Mekadesh his Bogeres daughter)!

(h)

Answer: The case is, the Bogeres made her father a Shali'ach to be Mekadesh her;

1.

One might have thought that (perhaps) the father accepted Kidushin for her. The Mishnah teaches that this is not so. Rather, he accepted for the minor, for then he keeps the money.

2.

Question: If the Bogeres told her father that he may keep the money, how can we answer?

3.

Answer: Still, surely he was Mekadesh the minor, for that is a Mitzvah incumbent on him. (It is not incumbent on him to be Mekadesh his Bogeres daughter.)

(i)

Question (against Rava - Mishnah - R. Meir): If a man has two sets of daughters (from two wives), and he said 'I was Mekadesh my big daughter. I don't know if it was the biggest of the older set, or the biggest of the younger set, or the youngest of the older set, who is older than all of the younger set', they are all Safek Mekudashos, except for the youngest of the younger set.

(j)

Answer: The case is, at the time of Kidushin he specified which daughter. Later, it was forgotten.

1.

Support: The Mishnah says 'I don't know', not 'it is not known'.

2.

Question: If so, what is the Chidush? (Obviously, they are Safek Mekudashos!)

3.

Answer: One might have thought like Rebbi Yosi, who says that one does not enter a Safek (so surely he was Mekadesh his oldest daughter). R. Meir teaches unlike this.

(k)

Question (against Rava - Mishnah): If Reuven was Mekadesh one of two sisters, and he does not know which, he gives a Get to each.

(l)

Answer: The case is, at the time of Kidushin he specified which sister. Later, it was forgotten.

1.

Support: The Mishnah says 'I don't know', not 'it is not known'.

2.

Question: If so, what is the Chidush? (Obviously, they are Safek Mekudashos!)

3.

Answer: The Chidush is in the Seifa:

i.

(Seifa): If Reuven died, leaving one brother, he does Chalitzah to both women. If he left two brothers, one does Chalitzah and the other does Yibum (or Chalitzah);

ii.

If both did Yibum, we allow them to stay married.

iii.

L'Chatchilah, Chalitzah must be done before Yibum. If a brother did Yibum first, if the girl he takes was not Mekudeshes to Reuven, he marries his Yevamah's sister (which is forbidden)!

(m)

Question (Mishnah): If Shimon and David were Mekadesh two sisters, and neither knows which one, each man must give a Get to each sister.

(n)

Answer: The case is, at the time of Kidushin they knew who was Mekadesh whom. Later, it was forgotten.

(o)

Support: It says 'neither knows', not 'it is not known.'

(p)

Question: If so, obviously they are Safek Mekudashos!

(q)

Answer: The Chidush is in the Seifa:

1.

(Seifa): If both men died and each left one brother, each brother does Chalitzah to both women;

2.

If Shimon left one brother and David left two brothers, Shimon's brother does Chalitzah to both women. One of David's brothers does Chalitzah and the other does Yibum;

3.

If Shimon's brother also did Yibum, we allow both couples to stay married.

4.

L'Chatchilah, Chalitzah must be done before Yibum. If a brother does Yibum first, if she was not Mekudeshes to his brother, he now marries the Shomeres Yavam of another man.

OTHER D.A.F. RESOURCES
ON THIS DAF