More Discussions for this daf
1. Kinyan vs hazakah 2. Chazakah and Rav Huna's question 3. Shmuel's inconsistent order of reply
4. Rav Huna 5. àãòúà ãáé ãøé
 DAF DISCUSSIONS - BAVA BASRA 54
1. DANIEL GRAY asks:

In first 3 statements of Shmuel he explains first the indicator of chazakah, then the indicator of a different motive. But in the 4th statement, this order is flipped. Why?

(d)

(Shmuel): If one prunes a date tree so it will grow better, he acquires it;

1.

If he pruned it to feed to his animals (even though he intended to acquire it), this is not a Chazakah (because he did not intend to improve the tree).

(e)

Question: How do we know whether or not he intended to improve the tree?

(f)

Answer: If he took branches from all sides of the tree, he intended to improve the tree. If he took branches from only one side, he did so for his animals.

(g)

(Shmuel): If one takes pieces of wood and grass from a field so it will be easier to plow, he acquires it;

1.

If he took them for burning, he does not acquire (this is like eating Peros, which is not a Chazakah).

(h)

Question: How do we know what his intention was?

(i)

Answer: If he took big and small pieces, he intended to improve the field. If he took only big pieces, he did so for fuel.

(j)

(Shmuel): If one leveled a field so it will be easier to plow, he acquires it;

1.

If he did so to prepare the area to thresh grain, he does not acquire (a granary is detrimental to the field in the long term).

(k)

Question: How do we know what his intention was?

(l)

Answer: If he put the dirt of the mounds into the ditches, he intended to improve the field. If he merely flattened them a bit (to reduce the slope), he did so for threshing.

(m)

(Shmuel): If one made an opening so that water (from the river) will enter a field to irrigate it, he acquires it;

1.

If he did so for fishing, he does not acquire.

(n)

Question: How do we know what his intention was?

(o)

Answer: If he made one opening for water to enter from the river and another for water to leave, he did so for fishing;

1.

If he made only an opening for water to enter, it was for irrigation.

DANIEL GRAY, Toronto Canada

2. The Kollel replies:

Hi Daniel,

Thank you for this interesting question.

To begin, let me just say that the Yad Rama's Girsa is like you would expect the Gemara to be. The Dikdukei Sofrim brings other manuscripts of the Shas that have that version too.

To try to understand our version, we can maybe say that the order is not starting with what works as a Chazakah and then, what does not work, but rather, the Gemara starts with what is harder work, cutting both sides of the tree, collecting all kinds of wood, leveling the field fully, and accordingly, making openings on both ends of the river, which alines with the other cases since they all reflect a serious change in the possession, even though they aren't all the same outcome regarding the Halacha.

I realize it is a Dochak, but maybe it helps a bit.

Best Regards,

Aharon Steiner