More Discussions for this daf
1. "Dichuy" by Sechach of a Sukah 2. A tree planted by man 3. Wool of a sheep that was worshiped
4. Disposal of Avodah Zarah 5. רש״י ד״ה נוטל
 DAF DISCUSSIONS - AVODAH ZARAH 47
1. Joshua Danziger asks:

Hello kollel!

I had a question on the shulchan aruch oc 11:8 which says that a sheep that has been bowed down to, its wool is forbidden for tzitzit. Seems like this based in az daf 47.

My question is I thought that I can't assur someone else's property against their will by bowing to it (eg if you're a cattle farmer can I come and bow to them, causing you loss?)

Is this not correct, or is tziztzit a more limited ruling?

Thank you.

Josh

2. The Kollel replies:

I did not yet get a chance to look in the Mefarshim but an obvious answer seems to be that an idol-worshipper bowed down to his own sheep and afterwards sold the wool to a Jew (it is somewhat reminiscent of the question that is always coming up:- is one allowed to use the hair; shaved off the women at the Indian temples; for Shaitels?)

Good Shabbos

Dovid Bloom

Follow-up reply:-

Another possibilty is that a Jew bowed down to his own sheep and then did Teshuva on his aveirah of idol-worship. He now wants to make Tzitzis from the wool of his own sheep.

There is a reason why the person who did Teshuvah on Avodah Zara would want now to do the Mitzvah of Tzitzis, because Bamidbar 15:39 tells us that the reason for the Mitzvah of Tzitzis is so that when we see the strings we remember all the Mitzvos of Hash-m and do not go astray after our hearts. Gemara Berachos 12b states that this refers to idolatry.

Shavua Tov

Dovid Bloom

The Mirkeves HaMishneh writes that if an animal is worshipped this can make somebody else's animal forbidden:-

I found a big Chidush; which I do not understand; in Mirkeves HaMishneh Hilchos Isurei Mizbeach 4:6 DH uRee'h. He writes that the fact that Rav Papa, in our Gemara, asked what is the Din concerning the wool if someone bowed down to an animal; and did not ask what the Din is if he bowed down to his own animal; suggests that even if he bowed down to someone else's animal, it still may be that the wool becomes disqualified for Tzitzis. This is because if an animal is worshipped, one does not need to perform an action on it to make it forbidden to the Beis Hamikdash [and since Tzitizis is a Mitzvah it may be equivalent to a korban in the Beis Hamikdash - see Rashi here DH Ee Techeles].

Dovid Bloom

According to the Rambam if the animal is worshipped one can assur someone else's property for the Beis Hamikdash and also for Mitzvot:-

I am starting, possibly, to receive a little more understanding of this matter by looking at Rambam Isurei Mizbeach 4:6, which I alluded to above. The Rambam writes there "If an animal is worshipped; whether he worshipped his own or his friend's; it becomes forbidden". The Ra'avad writes there that in Masechet Avoda Zara the Gemara establishes that his friend's only becomes forbidden if he did a Maaseh. [Raavad is referring to Gemara Avoda Zara 54a where Rabbi Yochanan said "even though they said that if someone bows down to his friend's animal he does not make it assur; if he performed a Maaseh he makes it assur".]

I do not know how to answer the question of the Raavad on the Rambam , but we do see in the next Halacha in the Rambam 4:7 that he is consistent with what he wrote in 4:6, since in 4:7 he writes that if one bows down to an animal the wool becomes disqaulified. Again, as we pointed out in the above reply, the Gemara; and now the Rambam; states that bowing down to any animal; not necessary one's own; makes it assur.

The Rambam's Shittah appears to be that one can make one's friends animal assur for the Beis Hamikdash if one worships it, and bowing down is considered as worship. Tzitzis is a Mitzvah, so it is equivalent to the Beis Hamikdah

[see Teshuvot Bnei Tziyon Hilchot Tzitizit #11 DH Achein Adayin page 111]

Dovid Bloom

Talmud Yerushalmi says that everyone agrees that one can render somebody else's property forbidden to the Beis Hamikdash:-

1) The main source that one cannot make somebody else's property assur is from the Mishnah Kilayim 7:4-5 about a person who made his vine hang over his friend's produce. According to the Tana Kama this makes it forbidden because of Kilayim by planting vine and produce together, but Rabbi Yosi and Rabbi Shimon disagree and say that a person cannot Mekadesh an item which does not belong to him.

The Talmud Yerushalmi, on this Mishnah, discusses what is the Din of a "Ne'evad". Pnei Moshe explains that Avoda Zara was performed on it, for instance one bowed down to an animal. One Braisa says that whether or not the worshipped item belonged to the worshipper, the item becomes forbidden, whilst a different Braisa that it only becomes forbidden if the worshipper did the Avoda Zara on his own property; not if he did it on somebody else's property. The Yerushalmi then cites an opinion that states that there is no argument between the 2 Braisos. The Braisa that states that one can make another person's property forbidden means one can make it forbidden to the Beis Hamikdash whilst the Braisa that states one cannot, means one cannot make it forbidden to a private individual.

2) Mirkeves HaMishneh, that I cited above, writes that according to the above even if one did not do a Ma'aseh on the animal (e.g. one did not slaughter it but only bowed down to it) it still becomes forbidden to the Beis HaMikdash. Then, the Mirkeves HaMishnah makes the diyuk; that I cited above; from our Gemara 47a which says he bowed down to an animal , not to his animal . This suggests that even if it does not belong to him he can still make it forbidden for a higher purpose. Up to now, the higher purpose we discussed was the Beis Hamikdash and now we learn that the Mitzvah of Tzitzis is also considered a hgiher purpose; "Gavoah".

Dovid Bloom

According to Mirkeves HaMishneh; Rabbi Yochanan on Avoda Zarah 54a; Rambam Avodas Kochavim 8:1 and Rambam Tzitzis 1:11 all fit in well:-

1) To tie up this Inyan, we can look at the Gemara Avodah Zara 54a, where Rabbi Yochanan said "Even though they said that if someone bows down to his friend's animal he does not make it forbidden, if he did an action [see Rambam Hilchot Avodas Kochavim 1:8; for instance he slaughtered either the windpipe or esophagus with idol-worship in mind] this makes it forbidden. How does the Mirkeves HaMishnah fit in with this Gemara? The Mirkeves HaMishneh writes that one can make one's friend's animal assur even without a Maaseh?! The answer, of course, is that the Mirkeves HaMishneh is referring to making it assur for the Beis Hamikdash, whilst R. Yochanan on 54a is referring to making it forbidden for the friend's private use.

2) This also explains why the Rambam Hilchos Avodas Kochavim 8:1 writes that one cannot make forbidden a friend's animal since it does not belong to him. How does this fit in with Rambam Hilchos Issurei Mizbeach 4:6 that if one worships a friend's animal this makes it assur? Again, the answer is that in Hilchos Avodas Kochavim the Rambam is discussing makinf it assur to the friend, whio is a private individual, whilst in Issurei Mizbeach he is discussing making it assur to the Beis Hamikdash, This distinction is, of course, very logical since Hilchos Issurei Mizbeach is the section of the Rambam which discusees items which are forbiden to the Mizbeach and to the Beis Hamikdash.

3) And this is why the Rambam Hilchos Tzitzis 1:11 wirtes that if somebody bows down to an animal, the animal becomes invalid for Tzitzis. Tzitzis is a Mitzvah so it possess the same Din; in these resepcts; as the Beis Hamikdash and one can make the wool forbiden even without doing a Maaseh.

4) And this is how the Yefe Ainaim Avodah Zarah 54a answers the question of the Raavad on the Rambam Isurei Mizbeach 4:6 that I cited above. Raavad challenges the Rambam because R. Yochanan in Gemara Avodah Zara 54a

distinguished between doing an action or not. whilst Rambam implies it is always forbidden. The answer is that this Rambam is referring to making it forbidden to the Beis HamiKdash and for this one does not require a Maaseh. In contrast, R. Yochanan is discussing making it forbidden for a private individual, and for this one requires a Maaseh.

Dovid Bloom

Dovid Bloom