Greetings! Leading up to this Tisha B'Av I have been discussing and thinking about some questions relevant to the fast on the 10th of Av.
In general we know that when the fast is on the 9th certain stringencies continue until chatzos of the tenth because the main destruction of the Temple occurred until that time on the tenth. In addition, the practices of aveilus are to continue on the day of Tisha B'Av itself until chatzos.
1. The inuyim themselves are associated to the rabbinical ordinance for the fast of the 9th Temple. Therefore, it could be said that aside from the fasting one could be lenient, unless one would say that the Sanhedrin had the authority to establish a fast with all other inuyim on any day of the year. Could indeed the Sanhedrin have enacted a fast of the five inuyim on any day of the of year for any reason and not be considered an enactment that the people could not comply with?!
2. With that in mind, one could even ask why Chazal did not transfer the fast with the inuyim to Monday instead, since it is in remembrance of the chorban and could be designated to any other day. Therefore, all the practices starting from Erev Tisha B'Av would be fully observed if the fast were observed on Monday. It could be said that the fact that they did not designate the fast on Monday (or any other day) indicates that they were making it clear that the observance on Sunday was to be more lenient than on a regular Tisha B'Av anyway.
3. Thus, the restrictions of aveylus lasting until chatzos of Tisha B'Av wouldn't have to apply when the fast is on the 10th of Av, just as the extensions of certain restrictions (meat, laundry) do not get applied to the 11th of Av at chatzos as they do when Tisha B'Av is on the 10th . Similarly, it would seem that the other inuyim would not have to apply on the fast of the 10th at all, again, because they designated SUNDAY to keep the fast when they could have just as easily designated any other day including Monday. This could also include leniencies for eating that already exist for Tisha B'Av (which is not as strict as Yom Kippur) that could then be even more lenient when the fast day falls out on the 10th, Sunday.
Regards,
David Goldman
1) This question is asked by Teshuvos Divrei Malkiel 3:26 (DH v'Od) (by the Rav of Lomza, Rav Malkiel Tenenbaum, 1847-1910). He asks that since Tish'ah b'Av on Shabbos anyway must be postponed, then why not postpone it for another day? We find something similar with the Fast of Gedaliah. Gedaliah ben Achikam was in fact murdered on Rosh Hashanah but we do not make the Fast on Rosh Hashanah, since this is Yom Tov; instead we delay it to the first available day after Rosh Hashanah, which is the third of Tishrei. However, if the first day of Rosh Hashanah falls on Thursday, that means the third of Tishrei is on Shabbos, so we delay Tzom Gedaliah until the fourth of Tishrei. We learn from this that we delay the fast day by three days -- from 1 Tishrei to 4 Tishrei. So why can we not have the Fast of 9 Av on 12 Av?
2) The Divrei Malkiel gives an answer based on the idea that we have made a Neder to fast once a year on 9 Av as a form of mourning for the destruction of the Beis ha'Mikdash. When Tish'ah b'Av falls on Shabbos, it is impossible to fulfil this Neder, but in a case where one cannot be Mekayem a Neder on the appropriate day one has to carry it out at the first next feasible opportunity. This is why we fast on 10 Av -- because it is the first possible opportunity that the Jewish people have to fulfill their commitment to mark the Churban Beis ha'Mikdash once a year with a Ta'anis.
3) The Divrei Malkiel gives a different reason, and he explains that there is something special about the date of 10 Av.
(This reason has an advantage over the reason given above, because the Shulchan Aruch (OC 568:3) writes that if someone made a vow to fast a certain number of fasts, he may postpone them until the winter when the days are shorter. The Mishnah Berurah there (#28) writes that this applies only if it was impossible to carry out the fasts now; otherwise, he may not postpone them, since we are afraid he might die in the meantime. However, if winter is not far away, he may delay them. We see from this that the idea stated by the Divrei Malkiel that one must carry out the Neder at the first feasible opportunity does bear with it a certain amount of flexibility.)
The answer is based on the Gemara in Ta'anis 29a which states that the Beis ha'Mikdash was set on fire close to sunset towards the end of 9 Av and most of it burned down on 10 Av. For this reason, Rebbi Yochanan said that if he would have lived in that generation he would have fixed the fast on 10 Av since most of the Heichal burned down then. However, the Rabanan disagree with Rebbi Yochanan and say that the beginning of a calamity is the worst, so 9 Av was chosen as the day of fasting.
4) The Divrei Malkiel writes that while the Halachah follows the Rabanan that in a normal year the Ta'anis is held on 9 Av, when 9 Av falls on Shabbos the fact that the Heichal burned down on 10 Av means that the 10th now becomes equivalent to the 9th. This is not similar to other fasts which are delayed.
5) I found, bs'd, support for the Divrei Malkiel from the Rashba, who writes (in Teshuvas ha'Rashba 1:520) something very similar to the second reason of Divrei Malkiel.
a) The Rashba was asked if the prohibition against marital relations applies on Friday night when 9 Av is on Shabbos. He answered that there is no prohibition since, when 9 Av falls on Shabbos, Chazal totally uprooted everything from 9 Av and transferred it all to 10 Av. He also cites the Gemara we saw above that Tish'ah b'Av should really have been fixed, in the first place, on 10 Av every year.
b) It should be pointed out that the Shulchan Aruch (OC 554:19) rules that relations are permitted on 9 Av on Shabbos. However, the Rema there writes that some prohibit this and that this is the custom. Now, the Rashba and the author of the Shulchan Aruch were both Sefardim, and they are lenient in this matter, while the Rema was Ashkenazi, so it may be that there is a difference between Sefardim and Askenazim concerning how to understand the delayed Tish'ah b'Av.
c) At any rate, according to the Rashba, we have no basis for saying that the Sanhedrin had the power to enact the five Inuyim any day of the year. They could do so only on the 10th of Av because that was the day that most of the Heichal burned down.
Dovid Bloom
Thank you again, R. Dovid Bloom. I have a few points on your reply.
Tisha B'Av is not really the same as Tsom Gedaliah, it is an obligatory 24 hour fast with inuyim. It was set for 9 Av, but has a postponement from Shabbos. So one could ask why the fast should not be postponed until Monday for it to be observed fully.
Doesn't the specific stringency /neder of Tisha B'av include all the restrictions that continue on to the next morning because of the fact that the Temple burned into the morning of the 10th? I understand that this is eliminated when Tisha B'Av is postponed until Sunday, but if the main burning occurred into Sunday, then the position of the chachamim might have included the need for all the restrictions ONLY until chatzos of the 10th. In other words, the fast is postponed to the day when the chachamim would hold it was not as severe (just as there is no fasting for all the days when the Temple was desecrated by the Babylonians/Romans. This might mean that the nature of the rabbinical fast was to be more lenient and fasting itself could end at chatzos in a year when there is a postponement.
Regarding the power of enactment of Chazal, it isn't clear to me why the Sanhedrin could not establish a fast with inuyim for Monday or any day of the year since they already enacted the fast on the 9th with inuyim for a day not stated in the Torah. And the fact they enacted the inuyim for the entire day of the 9th when the Temple did not burn until the end of the day shows that they could enact them for anytime aside from the when the Temple burned.
Finally, how do we distinguish aveylus for the FIRST TEMPLE in comparison to the second? I have read that not only did Jews have an enactment to fast on 9th of Av before the construction of the second Temple, but EVEN during the time of the SECOND Temple Jews fasted on Tisha B'Av (voluntarily I suppose since there is no mention of fasting during the Second Temple) because of the loss of the greatness of the FIRST Temple.
1) The first question here is a question on the approach of the first answer in the Teshuvos Divrei Malkiel (3:26, DH v'Od) that I cited above. (I do not think the question applies to the Teshuvos ha'Rashba 1:520 that I cited above.) The question goes like this: When 9 Av falls on Shabbos, the fast is postponed one day to Sunday. Why is it not postponed to Monday or Tuesday instead? Why is it different from Tzom Gedalyah, where even though Gedalyah was murdered on 1 Tishrei, in some years it happens that Tzom Gedalyah is held on 4 Tishrei?
2) The question on the Divrei Malkiel is how can he compare Tish'ah b'Av to Tzom Gedalyah? Tish'ah b'Av is an obligatory fast while Tzom Gedalyah is not! This question can be strengthened if we look at the Gemara in Rosh Hashana 18b, where Rav Papa says that in a time when there is no decree of the king against the Jewish people, but there also is no peace, the law is that for all fasts apart from Yom Kippur and Tish'ah b'Av, if they want to fast they may fast and if they do not want to fast they need not fast. The Gemara asks that if so, why do we not say that Tish'ah b'Av is also optional? The Gemara answers that Tish'ah b'Av is different because the disasters "were doubled." We see from the Gemara that Tzom Gedalyah is optional while Tish'ah b'Av is compulsory. How then can the Divrei Malkiel compare the two?
3) We may answer with the words of Tosfos in Megilah 5b (DH Ho'il). The Gemara in Megilah 5b (top line) tells us that Rebbi Yehudah ha'Nasi washed in public on 17 Tamuz. Tosfos asks why does the Gemara tell us that he washed? He could even have eaten, since the Gemara in Rosh Hashanah (18b) tells us that the other fasts are optional! Tosfos answers that our ancestors have already accepted this fast as an obligation, so it is probable that in the time of Rebbi Yehudah ha'Nasi his ancestors had also accepted it as an obligation.
4) We learn that in the time of Tosfos, 17 Tamuz (and therefore also Tzom Gedalyah) was compulsory. This is also stated in the Shulchan Aruch, OC 550:1, that everyone is obligated to fast on the four fasts besides Yom Kippur. According to this, we can understand how the Divrei Malkiel compares Tish'ah b'Av to Tzom Gedalyah. The fact that it is not a 24-hour fast with Inuyim is not so crucial, because the main thing is that it is a compulsory fast.
5) Let us take a look at the Gemara in Ta'anis 29a.
a) The Gemara tells us (ninth line of the middle wide lines) that on 7 Av, the Nochrim entered the inner courtyard of the Beis ha'Mikdash, and on 7 and 8 Av they ate and behaved indecently there. Towards the end of the 9th, close to nightfall, they set fire to the building and the fire continued to burn through the entire day of 10 Av. This is why Rebbi Yochanan says that if he would have lived in that generation, he would not have fixed the day of mourning as any day other than the 10th of Av, because that is when most of the Heichal burned down. However, the Rabanan said that the beginning of a disaster is the worst apart, so this is why the day was fixed on the 9th of Av.
b) The Tur (OC 558) cites this Gemara, and also cites the Talmud Yerushalmi which tells us that Rebbi Avin fasted both on the 9th and the 10th of Av, and Rebbi Levi fasted on the 9th and on the night of the 10th because he was not strong enough to fast two full days. The Tur adds that nowadays we are weaker and are not strong enough even to fast two days on Yom Kippur, which is actually more important. The Tur adds that nevertheless it is a proper custom not to eat meat on the 10th, and only to eat on the night of the 10th what is necessary "to return the soul."
c) We learn from the Tur that the main institution is to fast on the 9th, since this was the start of the calamity. If somebody is strong enough it is praiseworthy to fast two full days, but according to the pure Halachah any afflictions performed on the 10th are only a custom. However, we can say that when the 9th falls on Shabbos, this means that we do everything on the 10th. The Gemara states that the Beis ha'Mikdash burned down throughout the whole of 10 Av, so, historically speaking, this was the worst day. It burned down after Chatzos on the 10th, so in a Nidcheh year we perform the fast at this time.
Kol Tuv,
Dovid Bloom