More Discussions for this daf
1. Dibur is not a Ma'aseh 2. Pshat in Rashi 3. Which Mesichta comes before Makos?
4. Keitzad Ein HaEdim Neasim Zomemim 5. Edut Sh'eino Yachol L'haziman 6. Question on the second Kal Vachomer.
7. Rebbi Yochanan's Kal v'Chomer 8. Eidim Zomemim 9. Rebbi Yochanan's Kal v'Chomer
10. Does the Gerushah become a Chalalah? 11. Damages 12. Iy Atah Yachol Lehazimah, and Kim Lei...
13. 40 lashes 14. Minah Hani Mili 15. Edus she'I Efshar l'Hazimah
16. Malkus for Edim Zomemim in a case of Ben Gerushah, Tosfos 17. Question on Suggestion of First Tosfos 18. First Tosfos on Daf 2a
19. Mitzri Sheni 20. Lo Sa'aneh Without an Action 21. Mitzri Sheni
22. Ben Gerushah And Ben Chalutzah 23. Chalutzah 24. Galus
25. Chalalah 26. R Yochanons Kal v'Chomer- Insights 27. Killing b'Shogeg or b'Meizid
28. Ma'aseh or not? 29. Ein Adam Oseh Atzmo Rasha 30. Ben Gerushah
31. Ein Adam Oseh Atzmo Rasha 32. Eidus she'Iy Atah Yachol l'Hazimah 33. Monetary Matters and Hazamah
34. Ka'asher Zamam through Malkos - Tosfos 35. Edim Zomemim 36. The very first Tosfos
37. v'Lo Ka'asher Asah 38. Tosfos on "Mah ha'Sokel" 39. Tosfos and Maharsha 2b
40. R. Yochanan's Kal v'Chomer 41. Question on the Ritva from Shifchah Charufah (in Insights) 42. מכות בגימטריא הרהורים
43. מכות בגימטריא הרהורים 44. תוספות ד"ה מעידין 45. אין עושין בהן דין הזמה כל עיקר
46. והצדיקו את הצדיק 47. בגניבתו ולא בזממו
 DAF DISCUSSIONS - MAKOS 2
1. Tzemach asks:

Does Ka'asher Zamam apply if the Eidim Zomemim only started their eidus, but Beis Din didn't make a verdict yet? Do they get any punishment or nothing because it was before b"d made a verdict?

Tzemach, USA

2. The Kollel replied:

Shalom Tzemach,

The Gemara brings the discussion between the Chachamim and the Tzadukim. The Chachamim say that we learn from the Pasuk that says "ka'Asher Zamam La'asos l'Achiv" that we punish the Edim Zomemim with what they wanted to cause to their brother, but only when "Achiv Kayam" but not "Ka'Asher Asah," so if the witnesses testified a Chiyuv Misah against this person and he was already killed, we do not kill these Edim.

There are a few reasons given by the Mefarshim. Some of them are:

a) The Abarbanel says that this is for the sake of the court's honor, not to publish that they have tried a soul for unlawful killing, which would bring their dignity into disrepute and challenge their authority.

b) The Ramban says that one must believe in the Hashgachah of Hash-m standing with the Dayanim that there was no mishap by them to shed clean blood and surely he had to die.

c) The Meshech Chochmah says that the relatives of the slain will bring false witnesses to avenge his blood if we can kill the witnesses even after the verdict was executed.

There is a three-fold dispute as to whether this law also applies to Edus of Chiyuv Malkus and Mamon, since even after the execution of the sentence the condemned still exists (Adayin Achiv Kayam).

The Rambam believes that this law is relevant only in the case of Chiyuv Misah, because only in this case "Ein Achiv Kayam," and also the reasons mentioned above are most relevant.

The Ritva believes that although the reason is more appropriate for the death sentence, the law is said in general for all cases.

Tosfos says that Chiyuv Malkus is similar to Chiyuv Misah, since after the convict has been whipped there is no longer any possibility of turning back, and this matter is considered as if "Achiv Eino Kayam." In financial cases, the person who paid will get his money back, and we will make the witnesses pay this money.

In light of all of this, the answer to your question is that if a court gave a verdict but has not yet carried it out, surely the witnesses will receive the punishment of "ka'Asher Zamam," and only if the sentence has already been carried out will all of the above be relevant.

Best Regards,

Aharon Steiner