Sholom Aleichem Rabbi Kornfeld and fellow Kollel Members:
In the charts on 116b the last chart talks about eating kodshim kalim during the Journeys in the midbar from place to place.
http://www.dafyomi.co.il/zevachim/hebcharts/zv-tl-116.htm.
The chart says during the time of Journeys they can be eaten inside the Machaneh. It also say that when they are moving or going according to Rashi they cannot be eaten.
Rashi says the Kodshim Kalim are not posul but can't be eaten.
So how does the chart say during the Journey they can be eaten inside the Machaneh? What machaneh is there during the Journey?
Did Rashi say anything that the can be eaten during the Journey?
Thank you,
Moshe Usher Reinitz
The chart says that according to Rashi, when they are on the move the Kodshim Kalim cannot be eaten, but when they are resting between the different journeys, they may be eaten. Since they have stopped, there is a Machaneh.
Rashi (3 lines from the end of 116b) writes that when they encamp, the Kodshim Kalim may be eaten in the Machaneh.
Kol Tuv,
Dovid Bloom
Please look again at the chart the bottom right box
Ne'echalim b'Sha'as Masa'an
It is not just saying while they travel it is not posul.
It's saying b'Sha'as Masa'an they can be eaten. While traveling!
How can they be eaten in the Machenh while traveling, when there is no machaneh?
Rashi three lines from the bottom says that they are not posul during the travel, and when they arrive and camp(!) they can eat them.
Arriving and camping is not called. b'Sha'as Masa'an
That would be translated as during the traveling they can eat them.
The chart says when they traveled, they could eat korbonos, not after
they arrived.
Reb Moshe Usher, I see what you mean!
1) However, I could still be Doichek and argue that Tosfos, at the top of 117a, writes that even though the Ohel Moed is traveling, it is still called "Ohel Moed," and therefore Kodshim Kalim may be eaten. In contrast, Kodshei Kodshim need partitions, so during the traveling there is no Machaneh Shechinah.
This suggests that it is only Machaneh Shechinah which does not exist during the travels, while Machaneh Yisrael does exist, and this is what one requires for Kodshim Kalim.
So there is a Machaneh while traveling; this is Machaneh Yisrael.
2) I might strenghten what I wrote above, by pointing out that even when they were traveling one can assume that they did not actually eat literally when they were moving. (The Gemara in Gitin 70a advises against eating even when standing and certainly it is not a normal practice to eat when one is walking.)
Obviously, they had to rest at night and presumably sometimes during the day also, and at such times it could be considered that Machaneh Yisrael existed (even though Machaneh Shechinah did not exist because there were no partitions, as Tosfos writes).
3) It is worth mentioning the opinion of Rashi (114b, DH Kodshim Kalim; Rashi 55a, DH Tahor (see Rashash and Sefas Emes there, who are surprised at Rashi's opinion); and Rashi to Sotah 20b (DH Imo), who seems to say that it all depends on the flags, and each Shevet would not be allowed to eat Kodshim outside its own Degel of three Shevatim. According to this, since they traveled according to their flags, clearly the flags still existed at the time of traveling and therefore they could eat Kodshim Kalim in the Machaneh Yisrael when they stopped in the middle of the travels.
4) The Artscroll Hebrew edition (116b, note 31) cites Mefarshim who say that even according to Rashi, the reason they could not eat Kodshim Kalim during the journeys is not that the place is not worthy for this (because there is no Machaneh) but rather because it is not honorable to eat Kodshim when one is in the middle of a journey. Rather, one should eat them when has reached a more established resting place.
Kol Tuv,
Dovid Bloom
I would just like to strenghten what I wrote above, bs'd.
1) It should be pointed out that even when they were travelling one can assume that they did not actually eat literally when they were moving! (the Gemara Gitin 70a advises against eating even when standing and certainly it is not a normal practice to eat when one is walking). Obviously they had to rest at night and presumably sometimes during the daytime also, and at such times it could be considered that Machaneh Yisrael existed (even though Machaneh Shechinah did not exist because there were no partitions, as Tosfos writes).
2) It is worth mentioning the opinion of Rashi 114b DH Kodashim Kalim; Rashi above 55a DH Tahor (see Rashash and Sfas Emes there who are surprised at Rashi's opinion) and Rashi Sotah 20b DH Imo, who seems to say that it all depends on the flags, and each Shevet would not be allowed to eat Kodashim outside their own degel of 3 Shevatim. According to this, since they travelled according to their flags, clearly the flags still existed at the time of travelling and therefore they could eat Kodashim Kalim in the Machaneh Yisrael when they stopped in the middle of the travels.
3) See also Artscrolls Hebrew edition 116b, note 31, who cites Mefarshim that even according to Rashi, the reason they could not eat Kodashim Kalim during the journeys is not because the place is not worthy for this (because there is no Machaneh) but rather because it is not honorable to eat Kodashim when one is the middle of a journey. Rather, one should eat them when has reached a more permanent resting place.
KOL TUV
Dovid Bloom
Comments on previous answers:
1) Yes but as you said it's being docheik we are learning Rashi.
2) Nu Nu!
3) Is it clear that Rashi means they ate by their degel when they
travelled, or when they
camped they were limited to their degel? You might be able to say either way?
4) Ah! Now we got something. Yasher Koach!! :>
1) See Chidushei Chasam Sofer, end of Kesubos in "Remnants of Responsa of Chasam Sofer page 46 (also printed in Collected Teshuvos of Chasam Sofer #82) DH v'Im, who writes
"HaDochakim Rubam Amiti'im"; "most docheiks are true"!
3) Since the Torah tells us (Bamidbar 10:11-27) that the Bnei Yisroel travelled according to their flags, this would seem to mean that the degel was just as important at the time of travelling as any other time, so why should the limitation to the degel for eating not also apply during travels?
The Meshech Chochmah Bamidbar 2:17 elucidates how the orderliness of the Shevatim in the wilderness represented a great Kovod for Hash-m. It would seem that if an entire nation is travelling in such an orderly way, this represents a great honor for Hash-m. This applies possibly more than when the nation is camping. We can suggest that the reason why Rashi writes they must not eat outside their degel is because of this Kovod.
Good Shabbos
Dovid Bloom