My chavrusa and I have been over and over this section from Insights, AZ 73 and cannot understand it as written. Could someone please carefully review the text as copied from the Insights section below and make sure that it is correctly written, and perhaps add some extra explanation to the text so we can understand it. It would help to know on which line of the gemorrah the comments refer, it would help to know if the water/wine is permitted/prohibited in each of the examples.
>>a) The Gemara explains that according to Rav Dimi, when the Mishnah says that when wine falls into water the mixture is prohibited if the taste of Isur can be discerned in the mixture ("b'Nosen Ta'am"), it means that the water into which the wine falls is prohibited, and it prohibits the wine. Why, though, is the wine not prohibited if the forbidden taste cannot be discerned in the wine? The entire mixture should become prohibited because of "Rishon Rishon Batel"! Rashi answers that the case is one in which the wine falls into the water all at once, and thus "Rishon Rishon Batel" does not apply.
If, however, the wine falls into the water at one time, then how are we to understand the Gemara's next question? The Gemara asks that if the water mentioned in the Mishnah is prohibited water and the wine is permitted wine, then why -- in the case in which water falls into wine -- is the mixture prohibited? The mixture should be permitted because of "Rishon Rishon Batel"! According to Rashi, the end of the Mishnah is discussing a case in which the mixture was not caused by pouring one liquid into the other, but rather one liquid fell into the other all at once. Why does the principle of "Rishon Rishon Batel" apply to the case of water that fell into wine, if it fell in all at once? (MAHARSHA, KARNEI RE'EM; see also RITVA and RAN (on the Rif, 35b), who ask a similar question.)<<
Thanks,
R. Neil Blavin and R Lebbie Landsman
Shalom Rabbi Blavin and Rabbi Landsman,
Great to hear from you! Feedback like this is always extremely valuable to us. We want the material to be as clear as possible for all users.
I see the portion you are citing is from this url:
https://dafyomi.co.il/azarah/insites/az-dt-073.htm#:~:text=(a)%20The,a%20similar%20question.)
I would understand the Maharsha as follows. Firstly, our Mishnah rules that when wine and water mix, then the result is Asur if there is Nesinas Taam. Rav Dimi holds that if Nesech wine drips into Kosher wine, the result is Mutar because each successive drop is Batel. One of the challenges the Gemara raises against Rav Dimi based on our Mishnah is this: The Mishnah says that when wine falls into water, the result is forbidden if there is Nesinas Taam; assuming this case is Nesech wine falling into Kosher water, then it contradicts Rav Dimi, because if he is right then the resulting mixture should not be forbidden because we should say Kama Kama Batel! THe Gemara reconciles Rav Dimi's view with this ruling of the Mishnah by reinterpreting it: It is not a case of Nesech wine falling into Kosher water, but rather it is a case of Kosher wine falling into Nesech water! Therefore, it does not contradict Rav Dimi who maintains Kama Kama Batel, because Kama Kama Batel only applies to a case of Isur falling into Heter, but not to our Mishnah which is Heter falling into Isur. Now Rashi (DH Hachi Garsinan Lo Chamra) explains what this means practically: If, after the Kosher wine falls into the Nesech water, the Taam of the water still overwhelms the Taam of the wine, then the mixture is forbidden. But, if the wine overwhelms the Taam of the water, then the result will be Kosher. Now, Rashi considers, how can the wine overwhelm the water if each successive Kosher wine drop that falls into the Nesech water is Batel? Rashi answers: The wine is falling in all at once, not one drop at a time; therefore, th Nesech water is not able to Mevatel the Kosher wine.
The Maharsha on this Rashi addresses the following challenge that one might raise against Rashi's interpretation. If, as Rashi says, we are going to assume that the wine fell in all at once, not drop by drop, then seemingly the Gemara didn't have to abandon its original assumption that the case is Isur ( Nesech wine) falling into Heter ( Kosher water). Ostensibly, there ought to be no conflict with Rav Dimi if the mixture is happening in one shot as opposed to drop by drop.
By the way, if I understand him correctly, the Maharsha answers to defend Rashi as follows: If the case of the Mishnah is Isur falling into Heter, then the Mishnah conflicts with Rav Dimi, because according to Rav Dimi the resulting mixture shouldn't be Asur, because we ought to say Kama Kama Batel, because there is only a small portion -- Kdei Nesinas Taam -- of forbidden wine falling into the permitted water (for argument's sake let's say 1 ounce of wine falling into 60 ounces of water); but if it is Heter falling into Isur, then there is no Kashya on Rav Dimi, because it would be a much larger quantity of permitted wine falling into the forbidden water (e.g. 60x60=360 ounces of wine falling into 60 ounces of water), so even according to Rav Dimi, in such a case we do not say Kama Kama Batel.
I hope this helps. May you continue to attain greatness in Torah and Yiras Shamayim!
Warmly,
Yishai Rasowsky
Thank you Yishai,
Did you rewrite this section in a clearer way for the insights section?
I am going to offer a suggestion to the Kollel to modify it to read as follows:
a) The Gemara explains that according to Rav Dimi, when the Mishnah says that when wine falls into water the mixture is prohibited if the taste of Isur can be discerned in the mixture ("b'Nosen Ta'am"), it means that the water into which the wine falls is prohibited, and it prohibits the wine. Why, though, is the wine not prohibited if the forbidden taste cannot be discerned in the wine? The entire mixture should become prohibited because of "Rishon Rishon Batel"! Rashi answers that the case is one in which the wine falls into the water all at once, and thus "Rishon Rishon Batel" does not apply.
If, as Rashi says, we are going to assume that the wine fell in all at once, not drop by drop, then seemingly the Gemara didn't have to abandon its original assumption that the case is Isur (Nesech wine) falling into Heter (Kosher water). Ostensibly, there ought to be no conflict with Rav Dimi if the mixture is happening in one shot as opposed to drop by drop. (MAHARSHA, KARNEI RE'EM; see also RITVA and RAN (on the Rif, 35b), who ask a similar question.)
Thank you very much for your feedback!
Warmly,
Yishai Rasowsky