More Discussions for this daf
1. Questions from Daf 13-21 2. R Shimon Ben Gamliel "Ma'aseh Rav" 3. Mistake in Question
4. Chashmona'im 5. Yonah's Kikoyon 6. Rav Huna and Rav Chisda
7. Time Chanukah Lights Must Burn 8. Miracle of Oil 9. The Parei ha'Chag of Sukkos and the Chanukah lights
10. Ner Ish u'Beiso 11. Mehadrin and Pirsum Nes 12. Mehadrin
13. Insights on the Daf - Vilna Gaon on the Rif 14. Ma'alin ba'Kodesh 15. Galus Chashmonaim?
16. Meiri on 8 days Chanukah and Shabbos 17. The eight day miracle 18. The argument between Beis Shamai and Beis Hillel how to light the Chanukah lights
19. Hillel and Shamai 20. How to light the Chanukah candles: 21. Neros After 30 Minutes
22. Next year... 23. Eight days of Chanukah 24. ùéèú àáéé
25. èòîé á"ù åá"ä
 DAF DISCUSSIONS - SHABBOS 21
1. Joshua Danziger asks:

Hello kollel!

The meiri discusses that the oil lasted eight days bc it was four days each way to get optimal oil from tekoa. My q is how did they travel and/or carry on Shabbat?

Thank you!

Josh

2. The Kollel replies:

Shalom Josh,

1) A possible answer that comes to mind is that the Rambam writes (Hilchos Temidin u'Musafim 3:10) that lighting the candles in the Beis ha'Mikdash overrides Shabbos. Perhaps this includes a situation where there is no oil for lighting the Menorah, in which they may travel and carry on Shabbos in order to bring the oil.

2) After looking up how the Mefarshim answer this question, I found that most of them give a different answer than I gave above, but I did find, bs'd, that the Teshuvos Menuchas Moshe (by Rav Moshe Natan Yungreis, published in Munkatzch in 1905), #45, p. 86, gave a similar answer to mine and cited the Rambam that I cited. The Menuchas Moshe writes that even though there is a Torah prohibition to go more than 12 Mil outside the city limits on Shabbos, the positive Mitzvah of lighting the Menorah overrides this prohibition.

However, the Menuchas Moshe questions his answer from the Gemara in Shabbos (end of 132b) which says that a positive Mitzvah overrides a negative Mitzvah only if it is "b'Idna," performed "at the same time" -- namely, that at the time he transgresses the Lav he also performs the Aseh. This did not apply with the Chanukah oil, since they desecrated Shabbos on the journey and only later did they perform the Mitzvah of lighting the candles!

The Menuchas Moshe answers this question based on the Shibulei ha'Leket in the name of Rabeinu Tam (cited by the Magen Avraham OC 446:2). Rabeinu Tam says that for a public Mitzvah there is no requirement of "b'Idna." Even if the positive Mitzvah is not fulfilled immediately, it overrides a negative Mitzvah if this Mitzvah is being done for the Rabim.

Therefore, they were allowed to go outside the city boundaries to obtain the oil for the entire Jewish people to light the Menorah in the Beis ha'Mikdash.

3) Here is another answer, based on the Tosfos Yom Tov, who explais that there are ways of traveling out of town on Shabbos.

Some Mefarshim (see Teshuvos Divrei Yatziv 2:279:2, Teshuvos Si'ach Yitzchak (Weiss) #324) answer this question based on the Tosfos Yom Tov in Maseches Ta'anis (1:3, DH l'Nahar). Raban Gamliel says there in the Mishnah that we start asking for rain on 7 Marcheshvan, which is 15 days after Yom Tov, in order to give the last travelers of Yisrael enough time to reach their home next to the Euphrates River.

The Tosfos Yom Tov proves from verses that the distance between Yerushalayim and the northern-most border of Eretz Yisrael is 150 Parsa'os. One can walk 10 Parsa'os in a day, so it follows that it takes 15 days to walk from Yerushalayim to the northern border. The Tosfos Yom Tov then writes, "Do not be perplexed about the Shabbosos during these 15 days." This is the same as our question about how they went on the Shabbos, during the 8 days, between Yerushalayim and Teko'a to get the oil.

The Tosfos Yom Tov gives two answers to this problem:

(a) The Gemara in Shabbos (150b) states that if there are "Burganin," this provides a permitted way of walking beyond the city limits. "Burganin" (booths, or Sukos which watchmen sleep in) are shacks which, when situated every 70 Amos beyond the city, extend the city loimits. Because of the Burganin it is considered as one city, so there may have been Burganin all the way to Teko'a which enabled them to go on Shabbos.

(b) The Tur (OC 398) discusses the boundaries of cities. The boundaries can extend a considerable way farther than the last house. (The Tosfos Yom Tov seems to imply that the cities between Yerushalayim and the Euphrates River might be so close together that one could walk them on Shabbos. However, it may be that the Tosfos Yom Tov means that it is sufficient that it is possible that they are all in one boundary even though in reality this never actually happened).

4) Most Poskim hold that there is no Torah prohibition against walking outside of the city on Shabbos:

Another answer to this question is given by the Teshuvos Shevet Sofer (#52, DH Kibalti). He writes that according to most Rishonim, there is no Torah prohbition even for walking more than 12 Mil outside the boundary of the city on Shabbos. He writes that the Rishonim cited proofs for this from many places in Shas and refers us to the Ramban in Milchamos at the end of the first chapter of Eruvin. See also the Rosh (Eruvin 1:24), who says that according to our Gemara (Bavli), the Rabanan (who disagree with Rebbi Akiva) hold that there is no boundary mid'Oraisa even more than 12 Mil. He cites Eruvin 46a where Rava said to Abaye that the Eruv for the city boundary is required only mid'Rabanan.

5) A friend of mine gave a simple answer to your question, Josh, of how did they carry on Shabbos. The answer is that Shabbos, in that year, did not fall on one of the 4 days when they were returning from Teko'a with the oil. Shabbos in that year fell in the first 4 days, when they were still on their way to Teko'a and did not yet need to carry anything!

6) If what is necessary to prepare the Mitzvah cannot be done before Shabbos, it can be done on Shabbos itself:

I want to suggest, bs'd, my own solution to this problem, based on the Mishnah in Shabbos 130a, discussing Bris Milah on Shabbos, where Rebbi Akiva says that any Melachah needed for the Bris which could be done before Shabbos may not be done on Shabbos, but if it could not be done before Shabbos one may do it on Shabbos itself. The discussion there (see Rashi DH Klal) concerns Machshirei Mitzvah -- Melachah not for the Bris itself but to prepare for the Bris.

Since the Rambam (Hilchos Temidin u'Musafin 3:10), which I cited in my first answer, writes that lighting the candles in the Beis ha'Mikdash overrides Shabbos, it follows that doing Melachah to make it possible to light the candles also overrides Shabbos if there is no other alternative. This is why they were allowed to travel out of town and to carry in Reshus ha'Rabim (if necessary) in order to go to Teko'a and back, to obtain the best oil.

We also find this in the Mishnah in Eruvin 102b, which states that one may tie a string (of a harp that broke) in the Beis ha'Mikdash on Shabbos. Rashi writes that tying the string on Shabbat involves a Torah prohibition, but because it broke on Shabbos this means it is Machshirei Mitzvah (because the Leviyim use the harp for the Shir when the Korban is offered) which could not be done before Shabbos, so one may do such a Melachah d'Oraisa on Shabbos. I argue, therefore, that they were allowed to travel to Teko'a on Shabbos to bring the oil.

7) Drawbacks in some of the answers of the Mefarshim:

In this format, I do not usually give my own answer if answers have already been given by the Mefarshim. So, to conclude this topic, I will mention why it seems to me that the answers do not cover all of the problems.

a) The answer based on the Tosfos Yom Tov (Taanis 1:3, DH l'Nahar) that I cited above (in the name of the Klausenberger Rebbe zt'l in Divrei Yatziv 2:279:2) seems to me to be problematic. This is because it is difficult to understand that the Tosfos Yom Tov means that, in practice, it was possible to go on every part of the way from Yerushalayim to Nehar Prat on Shabbos because there really were Burganin, or expanded city boundaries, on the entire way, which meant that one never left the city. I argue that the Tosfos Yom Tov does not mean that.

To understand what he means, I suggest that we look at Shabbos 150b, where Rav Yehudah said: "On Shabbos, one may say, 'I will go to such and such a city tomorrow' (even if it is outside the Techum), because if there were shacks [every 70 Amos along the way] it would be within the Techum." Rashi writes that since there is a Heter if there would be shacks, one may say one is going even if shacks are not present there now.

This is also what the Tosfos Yom Tov means. There would be a possibility of reaching the Euphrates River in 15 days if there would be shacks on the entire route. Even though in reality there were not so many shacks, this is sufficient for us to be able to pray for rain on 7 Marcheshvan because even the Jews who live the farthest distance away have a theoretical possibility of getting home in time.

I assert that this is also implied by the words of Tosfos Yom Tov, "v'Ho'il v'Efshar Liheyos Ken" -- "since it is possible to be like that." It does not have to be like that in practice, but it is sufficient if it could be like that. The Tosfos Yom Tov also concludes, "Kivan she'Efshar she'Ein ha'Shabbosos Me'akvos" -- "since it is possible that the Shabbosos do not hold them up." It is sufficient that it is possible that they could get there on Shabbos even though according to the reality at the moment they cannot.

The same applies to the "extended cities" that the Tosfos Yom Tov mentions. He does not mean that there really are so many sprawling cities on the way from Yerushalayim to the Euphrates River, but since it is theoretically possible that there could be, this is sufficient.

The answer of the Tosfos Yom Tov cannot be applied to the case of the people going to Teko'a for the oil, since they actually went on the journey on Shabbos and did not merely talk about it, so since it is extremely unlikely that there really were so many shacks or extended cities, I argue that the answer of the Tosfos Yom Tov will not help us to solve the Teko'a problem.

b) The answer that I cited above in the name of the Shevet Sofer, that most Poskim hold that even outside 12 Mil there is no Torah prohbition, is also problematic, since the Rambam (Hilchos Shabbos 27:1) writes that someone who leaves the boundary on Shabbos receives lashes, which suggests it is a Torah prohibition. In addition, the Rif, at the end of the first chapter of Eruvin, holds that farther than 12 Mil there is a Torah prohibition, and the Mishnah Berurah (OC 404:7) writes that, according to the Shulchan Aruch, it may be d'Oraisa. So according to these Poskim we do not have a clear answer about Teko'a.

c) See the Maharam Shik-Toras Yakov (p. 145 and onwards), where the son-in-law of the Maharam Shik challenges the Menuchas Moshe that I cited in my second answer.

Yeyasher Kochacha for raising this fascinating question, Josh!

Dovid Bloom