DO WE BELIEVE A SHECHIV MERA? (cont.)
Answer: Rav Huna discusses when Ploni has a document (therefore, we believe that he is owed).
Inference: Rav and Shmuel discuss when Ploni does not have a document.
Objection: When he says 'give', why do we give? This is (like a creditor trying to collect from buyers) a loan without a document!
(Rav and Shmuel): A loan without a document is not collected from heirs or buyers.
(Rav Nachman): Rather, also Rav and Shmuel discuss when Ploni has a document;
Rav Huna discusses a validated document. Rav and Shmuel discuss a document that is not validated;
If he says 'give', this is like validating the document. If he did not say 'give', he did not validate the document.
(Rabah): If a Shechiv Mera said '100 Zuz in my possession really belongs to Ploni', and his orphans say 'we paid Ploni', they are believed;
If he said 'give 100 Zuz to Ploni', and his orphans say 'we paid Ploni', they are not believed.
Question: Just the contrary! When he says 'give', the matter is clear, so it is more likely that they paid;
When he says '100 Zuz in my possession belongs to Ploni', the matter is not clear, so it is less likely that they paid!
Correction: Rather, if a Shechiv Mera said '100 Zuz in my possession belongs to Ploni', and his orphans say 'later, he told us that he paid Ploni', they are believed;
Question: What is the reason?
Answer: Later, he remembered that he had paid.
If he said 'give 100 Zuz to Ploni', and his orphans say 'later, he told us that he paid Ploni', they are not believed;
Had he paid, he would not have said 'give' (which shows certainty that he owes).
Question (Rava): If a Shechiv Mera admitted (to a creditor who claimed from him), what is the law?
Must he say 'you are witnesses (that I really owe him)'?
Must he say 'you may write a document'?
Does one jest at the time of death (and make a false admission), or not?
Answer (Rava): One does not jest at the time of death. What a Shechiv Mera says takes effect like a document that was handed over.
LIABILITY OF AN AREV
(Mishnah): If Reuven lent to Shimon and wrote a document, he can collect even from Meshubadim (property that the borrower sold after he borrowed);
A Milveh Al Peh (a loan for which no document was written) is collected only from Bnei Chorin (property that the borrower still owns).
If Reuven presents a document (without signatures) in Shimon's handwriting saying that Shimon owes him, he collects from Bnei Chorin.
If an Arev accepted Arvus in a document underneath the signatures, the lender can collect from Bnei Chorin (of the Arev).
A case occurred in which R. Yishmael said that he collects from Bnei Chorin.
Ben Nanas: He does not collect at all!
R. Yishmael: Why not?
Ben Nanas: If Reuven saw Shimon (the lender) choking the borrower, and said 'leave him alone, and I will give to you', Reuven is exempt, for Shimon did not lend due to Reuven;
An Arev is liable if he said 'lend to him, and I will give to you', for the loan was given due to the Arev.
R. Yishmael: To become a Chacham, one should study monetary laws. It is the greatest field in Torah;
To learn monetary laws, one should study under Ben Nanas.
WHAT CREATES A LIEN?
(Gemara - Ula): Mid'Oraisa, whether or not a document was written for a loan, the lender may collect from Meshubadim (property that the borrower sold after he borrowed).
This is because Shibud (the lien on a borrower's property to pay the loan) is mid'Oraisa. (A sale does not uproot the lien.)
Chachamim enacted that one may not collect a Milveh Al Peh from Meshubadim to protect buyers from losing.
Question: If so, they should have enacted also that one may not collect a loan with a document from Meshubadim, to protect buyers!
Answer: There (when a document was signed, the matter becomes known. If a buyer asks, he will find out about the loan. If he did not do so), he caused his own loss.
(Rabah): Mid'Oraisa, whether or not a document was written, the lender does not collect from Meshubadim.
Shibud is not Mid'Oraisa. Chachamim enacted that a loan document is collected from Meshubadim due to Ne'ilas Delet (lest people be dissuaded from lending).
Question: If so, they should have enacted also that a Milveh Al Peh is collected from Meshubadim!
Answer: There, the loan does not become known. (Buyers have no way to find out about the loan, and they will lose.)
Contradiction: Rabah taught that if brothers collected land for a debt due to their father, the firstborn gets a double share in this. (This is because the land was already Meshubad in the father's lifetime. It is as if the father owned it.) If they collected money, he gets no extra share.
Suggestion: We must switch the opinions of Ula and Rabah.
Rejection: Ula taught that mid'Oraisa, a creditor collects Ziburis (low quality land). (Rashbam - he collects from the borrower mid'Oraisa, i.e. there is a lien on his land. Tosfos - all agree that mid'Oraisa, a lender collects from the borrower's property. Perhaps the Gemara understands that Ula says that mid'Oraisa he collects Ziburis from buyers.)
Answer: Rather, Rabah's law (about the firstborn) is according to Chachamim of Eretz Yisrael (like it says in Bava Kama 43a). He himself disagrees.
(Rav and Shmuel): A Milveh Al Peh is not collected from heirs or buyers.
This is because Shibud is not mid'Oraisa.
(R. Yochanan and Reish Lakish): A Milveh Al Peh is collected from heirs and buyers.
This is because Shibud is mid'Oraisa.
Question (against Rav and Shmuel - Beraisa): If Reuven was digging a pit in the Reshus ha'Rabim and an animal fell on him and killed him, the owner is exempt. Further, if the animal died, Reuven's heirs compensate its owner.
Answer (R. Ila'a citing Rav): The case is, Reuven died after Beis Din obligated him to pay. (A ruling of Beis Din is like a loan document, therefore the heirs must pay.)
Question: The Beraisa says that the animal killed Reuven!
Answer (Rav Ada bar Ahavah): The case is, it made Reuven a Treifah.
Question: Rav Nachman taught that the animal buried Reuven in the pit (i.e. he never went to Beis Din)!
Answer: The case is, judges were sitting by the pit and they obligated Reuven before he died.
(Rav Papa): The Halachah is, a Milveh Al Peh is collected from heirs, but not from buyers.
It is collected from heirs, due to Ne'ilas Delet;
It is not collected from buyers, because it does not become known.