QUESTION: The Gemara rules that a woman who is a Zavah may count seven clean days even when she has Tzara'as. RASHI (DH v'Lo mi'Nig'ah) explains why she should count clean days if she anyway remains Tamei as a Metzora: "She counts seven clean days and brings her Korban for her Zivah, and then she is no longer Metamei Bo'alah, even though she still has Tzara'as (since a Metzora is not Metamei Bo'alah)."

The TUREI EVEN (Megilah 8a, cited here by the GILYON HA'SHAS) asks a number of questions on the words of Rashi.

1. A Zavah brings a Korban only in order to allow her to eat Kodshim. The Korban is not necessary to permit her to her husband, because a Mechusar Kipurim (like a Zavah who has not yet brought her Korban) has no Tum'ah at all. Why, then, does Rashi mention that offering a Korban is a necessary step in order for her not to be Metamei Bo'alah?

2. The Gemara in Moed Katan (15b) discusses the question of whether a Metzora may send his Korbanos with a Shali'ach. Rashi there (16a, DH Zu) rules that a Metzora may not send his Korbanos with a Shali'ach. According to Rashi there, even though the Zavah may immerse (for her Tum'as Zov) while she is a Metzora'as, she should not be able to send her Korbanos. Why does he say here that she may bring her Korban for her Zivah while she is still a Metzora'as?

3. Why does Rashi not explain that the reason why the woman may count seven clean days while still a Metzora'as is in order to spare her from having to wait another seven days after she becomes Tehorah from her Tzara'as? This, in fact, is the way Rashi explains the law of "mi'Zovah v'Lo mi'Leidasah" in the following line, and this is also the way Rashi explains "mi'Zovo v'Lo mi'Nig'o" in Megilah (8a). (ARUCH LA'NER)

ANSWER: The Gemara explains that had the verse taught only that a Zav may count seven clean days while he is a Metzora, we would have derived that a Zavah may do so as well. When Abaye says that a separate verse is needed to teach the laws of a Zavah who is a Metzora'as, he requires that verse only for technical reasons (see beginning of 37b).

Why can the laws of a Zavah who is a Metzora'as be derived from the laws of a Zav who is a Metzora? A Zavah is Metamei Bo'alah until after she counts seven clean days; no such law exists in the case of a Zav. The verse that discusses a Zav teaches only that a Zav may count clean days while he is a Metzora. It does not teach that a Zavah ceases to be Metamei Bo'alah while a Metzora.

This may have been what prompted Rashi to learn that the Zavah is indeed Metamei Bo'alah while she is a Metzora'as even though she has already finished her count of clean days. The count may prevent her from being Metamei Bo'alah only if she is fit to offer Korbanos, even though she has not offered them. If the woman retains Tum'ah which prevents her from offering Korbanos, such as in the case of a Metzora'as, it is possible that she remains prohibited to her husband until she becomes Tehorah.

Rashi, therefore, explains as follows: "The Zavah who is a Metzora'as counts seven clean days and later, after she is Tehorah from Tzara'as, brings her Korban for her Zivah, and then she is no longer Metamei Bo'alah. Her count is valid even though she still has Tzara'as." (According to this approach, however, a Yoledes should also be Metamei Bo'alah until after her Yemei Tohar, since she cannot bring a Korban until then, even though she is permitted to her husband immediately after counting seven clean days.) (M. KORNFELD)

QUESTION: The Mishnah (36b) states that when a woman sees Dam during three consecutive days of Yemei Zivah, she is not considered a Zavah if the blood is a result of her attempts to give birth. How long does this exemption last? Rebbi Meir says that it can last for even forty or fifty days.

The Gemara asks, why does Rebbi Meir say "forty or fifty" days? He should say simply "fifty days," which clearly includes forty!

TOSFOS (DH Arba'im) points out that a similar expression is used in Sukah (2b). Rebbi Yehudah says that the Sukah may be even "forty or fifty Amos high." However, the Gemara there does not ask the question that the Gemara here asks, that the words "forty or" are redundant. Why does the Gemara there not ask this question?

(a) The RITVA explains that the Gemara here indeed could have answered that "forty or fifty" is just a common expression which is used to refer to many days, just as the Gemara there assumes that "forty or fifty Amos" is a common way to refer to any great height.

(b) TOSFOS answers that it is clear to the Gemara in Sukah that Rebbi Yehudah is merely using a common expression to connote a high structure. According to Rebbi Yehudah, even a Sukah higher than fifty Amos is valid.

Why, though, does the Gemara here not assume that Rebbi Meir similarly is using such an expression? The Gemara later (38a) implies that Rebbi Meir uses the number fifty as a limit for the maximum number of days that a woman can be exempt from Zivah due to difficulty during birth. Accordingly, Rebbi Meir's mention of the number forty here must not be merely part of a common expression, but he must be teaching a specific lesson with it.

Tosfos mentions other places in which the Gemara uses similar expressions. The Gemara in Kesuvos (60a) quotes Rebbi Yehoshua as saying that a child is allowed to nurse even if he is "four or five" years old, and yet the Gemara there is not troubled by that expression. Why not?

1. Tosfos here answers that Rebbi Yehoshua is not referring to a specific age. Rather, he means that a child may nurse even when he is older, according to his needs. This is apparent from a similar statement of Rebbi Yehoshua: a child may nurse "even if [he is old enough such that] he carries his package on his shoulder."

2. Tosfos in Kesuvos (60a, DH Rebbi Yehoshua) and in Shabbos (60b, DH Hashta) disagrees with Tosfos here. Tosfos there says that the Gemara in Kesuvos clearly is setting a limit for the maximum age at which a child may nurse. The Gemara asks why Rebbi Yehoshua says both "four or five years" and "even if he carries his package on his shoulder." Which age is the age at which he may nurse? The Gemara answers that both statements refer to the same age. This implies that the age of "four or five" is also a set age limit. Tosfos explains that four is the age at which a healthy child must stop nursing, and five is the age at which a weak child must stop. Accordingly, the Gemara there concludes that there is a specific reason for both ages, four and five.

The MISHNEH L'MELECH (Hilchos Sukah 8:7) asks that the answer of Tosfos in Kesuvos is so obvious that it is difficult to understand why Tosfos here in Nidah says that the words "four or five" do not refer to a specific age.

The CHOCHMAS BETZALEL answers the Mishneh l'Melech's question by explaining that Tosfos here understands the Gemara's question in Kesuvos differently. When the Gemara asks how Rebbi Yehoshua could say both of these statements, the Gemara already assumes that when Rebbi Yehoshua said "four or five years" he meant four years for a healthy child and five years for a weak child. The Gemara therefore asks that this statement contradicts Rebbi Yehoshua's other statement that a child may nurse even when he is old enough to carry a package. Tosfos learns that the Gemara's answer is that "four or five" are not actual ages, but rather an expression that means that even when he is older than five he is allowed to nurse (just as Rebbi Yehudah meant that a Sukah may be higher than fifty Amos). This is why Tosfos says that "four or five" is not referring specifically to four or five, but refers to as long as necessary. (Y. MONTROSE)