More Discussions for this daf
1. Dry flour 2. Kemitzah In The Heichal 3. Difference Between Keli Kodesh and Keli Shares
DAF DISCUSSIONS - MENACHOS 8

Tuvya marcus asks:

is there a difference between the words or are they really interchangeable?

if there is a difference/s - what are they and what are the nafka minos?

Tuvya marcus, Jerusalem Israel

The Kollel replies:

1) Not every kli kodesh is necessarily a kli shares. See for instance Menachos top 96a where there is a dispute between R. Yehudah and R. Shimon.

R. Yehudah maintains that the oven makes kodesh anything placed in it, whilst R. Shimon holds that the Tanur is not mekadesh. In other words R. Yehudah maintains that the oven is a kil shares but R. Shimon maintains that it is not.

However R. Shimon clearly agrees that the oven posseses kedusha. Even items nowadays in a shul possess the kedusha of a Beis Kneses. See Shulchan Aruch Orach Chaim 144:3 and Mishneh Berurah #10, that, for instance, the table that the Sefer Torah is placed upon possesses kedusha.

2) See also Sukah 50b where there is a dispute whether the main part of the Mitzvah of "Shir" is done by musical instruments or by vocally. The Rambam Hilchos Kli Hamikdash 3:3 paskens that the main part of the Mitzvah is performed by singing. Therefore musical instruments do not have a din of kli shares but they are klei kodesh.

Kesivah vaChasimah Tovah

Dovid Bloom

The Kollel adds:

1) It is worth noting that in the words of the Torah we find different usages for the words Kli Kodesh and Kli Shares. Bamidbar 31:6 says that Pinchas took the Klei Hakodesh with him. Rashi writes that this refers to the Aron and the Tzitz. We also find in Bamidbar 4:12 "they will take all the Klei Shares". Rashi writes that these are the vessels used for the incense on the inner Mizbeach.

So in this case Klei Hakodesh possess a higher level of kedusha than Klei Shares.

2) See also Mishnah Zevachim 32a which states "he received the blood in a kli kodesh and put in into a kli chol". This is an example of the word kil kodesh being used, even though it clearly means kli shares, since the blood must be received in a kli shares after the shechita. However there is not necessarily a proof from here that the 2 words are interchangeable, because one can say that the Mishnah uses the words "kli kodesh" because we want to stress the contrast with kli chol mentioned immediately afterwards.

3) Back to my original reply; about the difference between kli shares and the other vessels in the Beis Hamikdash, which I wrote also possess kedusha. The nafka mina between the 2 kinds of keilim is that kli shares make holy what is placed inside them (see Gemara 8b). The latter does not apply to other kelim (for instance the oven does not mekadesh the bread placed inside it, according to R. Shimon, in Menachos 96a, as I wrote in my first reply).

KOL TUV

Dovid Bloom

Tuvia Marcus asks:

Thanks for your reply. However, for example, in preparation of a mincha, the kli is mekadesh - but then you take the kometz and put it into a bazich.... Are they kli sharet - or kli kodesh.... and again - is there a nafka mina at all?

The Kollel replies:

1) It seems to me that a bazach is also a kli shares. My proof for this is from the Mishnah in Tamid 4:3 which describes how the Korban Tamid was sacrificed. The 6th Kohen standing in the row received the inner parts of the stomach which were placed in a bazach. The Bartenura writes that this is a spoon.

Now, there is a very letter important letter that Rav Meir Shapira zt'l of Lublin (the founder of the worldwide dafyomi cycle) wrote to the Rogatchover Gaon zt'l. This concerns the Mishnah in Tamid 3:4 which tells us that 93 vessels were used every day in the Beis Hamikdash service. The Rambam Hilchos Temidin u'Musofin 6:1 seems to say that these were Kli Shares. Rav Shapira makes a list of the 93 vessels, and the 9th vessel on the list is this bazach. So if a bazach for receiving the inner parts of the korban is considered a kli shares, I suggest that a bazach for receiving the mincha is also a kli shares.

2) I suggest that there is a nafka mina between a kli shares and a kli kodesh, and my proof is from Gemara Zevachim 88a. There a Braisa is cited that if Kli Kodesh became perforated one does not melt them down but one makes new ones (Rambam Hilchos Klei Hamikdash 1:14). The braisa continues to say that if a knife was damaged one does not sharpen it.

The next part of my argument is Tosfos Zevachim 47a DH Eizehu in the name of Rabeinu Efraim who maintains that the knife for shechita does not have to be a kli shares. Now, how is Tosfos going to understand the Braisa on 88a? If the words kli shares and kli kodesh are interchangeable, then this would mean that the braisa starts off discussing kli shares but continues to discuss vessels which are not kli shares. This seems rather inconsistent that the braisa should suddenly change theme. However if we say that kli kodesh means any vessels used in the Beis Hamikdash, even if they possess a lower level of kedusha than kli shares, then it makes sense that the braisa starts off discussing all kli kodesh, and gives the example of the shechitah knife and tells us what to do if it gets damaged.

3) Rabeinu Efraim understands that the nafka mina is that if the shechitah knife would be considered a kli shares one could not bring a knife from one's home to use in the Beis Hamikdash. I argue that since it is only a kli kodesh, one may bring it from home (see Pesachm 66)

Yasher Koach Gadol

Dovid Bloom