On 8b rabbi elazar says that a mincha where the kemitza was done in the heichal is valid. The gemara asks questions about this but cannot refute him. I am wondering why rabbi elazar said that his proof is from the spoons of the shulchan? Why didn't he say the same idea that rabbi yochanan gives on 8a & is repeated on 8b-regarding a shlamim that was slaughtered in the heichal. It's valid so that the secondary is not more important than the primary (tafel chamur min haikar). Here too by the mincha the same sevara should apply?!
Yisroel Dovid Berger , Lakewood, USA
Yisroel Dovid, Baruch she'Kivanta! Your question is asked by Tosfos, DH Minchah.
Kesivah v'Chasimah Tovah,
Dovid Bloom
Thanks for your reply. However, for example, in preparation of a mincha, the kli is mekadesh - but then you take the kometz and put it into a bazich.... Are they kli sharet - or kli kodesh.... and again - is there a nafka mina at all?
1) It seems to me that a Bazach is also a Kli Shares. My proof for this is the Mishnah in Tamid 4:3 which describes how the Korban Tamid was sacrificed. The 6th Kohen standing in the row received the inner parts of the stomach which were placed in a Bazach. The Bartenura writes that this is a spoon.
Now, there is a very important letter that Rav Meir Shapira zt'l of Lublin (the founder of the worldwide Dafyomi cycle) wrote to the Rogatchover Gaon zt'l. This concerns the Mishnah in Tamid 3:4 which tells us that 93 vessels were used every day in the Beis ha'Mikdash service. The Rambam (Hilchos Temidin u'Musafin 6:1) seems to say that these were Kli Shares. Rav Shapira makes a list of the 93 vessels, and the 9th vessel on the list is this Bazach. So if a Bazach for receiving the inner parts of the Korban is considered a Kli Shares, I suggest that a Bazach for receiving the Minchah is also a Kli Shares.
2) I suggest that there is a Nafka Minah between a Kli Shares and a Kli Kodesh, and my proof is from the Gemara in Zevachim 88a. The Gemara there cites a Beraisa which says that if a Kli Kodesh became perforated, we do not melt it down but rather we make new ones (see Rambam, Hilchos Klei ha'Mikdash 1:14). The Beraisa continues to say that if a knife was damaged we do not sharpen it.
Tosfos in Zevachim (47a, DH Eizehu) in the name of Rabeinu Efraim maintains that the knife used for Shechitah does not have to be a Kli Shares. Now, how is Tosfos going to understand the Beraisa on 88a? If the words Kli Shares and Kli Kodesh are interchangeable, then this would mean that the Beraisa starts off discussing Kli Shares but continues to discuss vessels which are not Kli Shares. This seems rather inconsistent -- that the Beraisa should suddenly change themes. However, if we say that Kli Kodesh means any vessels used in the Beis ha'Mikdash, even if they possess a lower level of Kedushah than Kli Shares, then it makes sense that the Beraisa starts off discussing all Kli Kodesh, and gives the example of the Shechitah knife and tells us what to do if it gets damaged.
3) Rabeinu Efraim understands that the Nafka Minah is that if the Shechitah knife would be considered a Kli Shares, one could not bring a knife from one's home to use in the Beis ha'Mikdash. I argue that since it is only a Kli Kodesh, one may bring it from home (see Pesachim 66a).
Yasher Koach Gadol,
Dovid Bloom