6b----------------------------------------6b

1)MAY ONE GIVE MILK OR EGGS TO NOCHRIM? [Ever Min ha'Chai :Nochrim: milk and eggs]

(a)Gemara

1.Question (Rav Acha): Chachamim learn (to forbid camel milk) from "Gamal... Gamal." R. Shimon learns from "Es ha'Gamal." If not, we would permit;

i.Why do we not learn from Sheratzim (that what comes from something forbidden is forbidden)?

ii.(Beraisa): "Ha'Teme'im" forbids their brine, soup (the water in which they were cooked), and Kipah (spices and shredded meat that accumulate at the bottom of the pot).

2.Answer #1: We cannot learn from there. In a milking animal, (what normally comes out as) menstrual blood is converted into milk. It is a Chidush that (even Tahor) milk is permitted;

i.One might have thought that since a Chidush permits Tahor milk, also Tamei milk is permitted. The verse teaches that this is not so.

3.Question: This is like R. Meir, who holds that a nursing woman (or animal) does not (normally) have Dam Nidah because it turns to milk;

i.R. Yosi holds that it is because her limbs are perturbed by the birth, and do not return to normal until 24 months. How can he answer?

4.Answer #2: Normally, anything that comes from a living being is forbidden. Since the Torah permits milk, one might have thought that it permits even milk of Teme'im. Therefore, the verse is needed.

5.Question: What is the source that Tahor milk is permitted?

6.Answer #1: We learn from "v'Dei Chalev Izim l'Lachmecha l'Lechem Beisecha v'Chayim l'Na'arosecha" (that one may subsist on milk)!

7.Rejection: Perhaps the verse teaches that one will sell the milk (to Nochrim)!

8.Answer #2: "(David brought) v'Es Aseres Charitzei he'Chalav" (to the leader of 1000 men in the war. Surely, it may be eaten!)

i.Question: Perhaps he brought it to him to sell!

ii.Answer: In war, one does not sell food to the enemy!

9.Answer #3: "Eretz Zavas Chalav u'Devash" - Eretz Yisrael would not be praised for something forbidden to eat!

10.Answer #4: "U'Lechu Shivru b'Lo Chesef uv'Lo Mechir Yayin v'Chalav."

11.Chulin 33a (Rav Papa): We never find something permitted to Yisrael and forbidden to Nochrim.

12.140a - Question: If a Tahor bird sits on Tamei eggs, why is there no Mitzvah to send it?

13.Answer: "Tikach Lach" - the Mitzvah applies when you may take the eggs to eat, not (only) for your dog.

14.Pesachim 21b (Beraisa - R. Meir): "Lo Sochlu Chol Neveilah la'Ger Asher bi'Sh'arecha Titnenah va'Achalah O Machor l'Nochri" permits giving (a Neveilah for free) to a Ger (Toshav, i.e. a Ben Noach who accepted to observe his Mitzvos) and selling it to a Nochri (idolater).

15.22a: R. Avahu holds that when the Torah permitted giving a Neveilah to a Ger, this permits benefit (even) from (the Chelev and) the Gid ha'Nasheh.

16.Avodah Zarah 6a (Beraisa - R. Noson): "V'Lifnei Iver Lo Siten Michshol" forbids extending wine to a Nazir or Ever Min ha'Chai (a limb from a living animal) to a Nochri.

17.The case is, the Nazir or Nochri is on the other side of a river, and he cannot reach it himself.

18.Support: The Beraisa mentions extending it to him, but not giving it.

(b)Rishonim

1.Rambam (Hilchos Melachim 9:13): In some cases a Nochri is liable for Ever Min ha'Chai but a Yisrael is not, e.g. meat that separates from a quivering animal, after a Yisrael slaughtered both Simanim.

2.Rosh Berachos (6:35): Something like blood gathers in the throat of a certain Chayah, and becomes musk. R. Yonah permits, for perhaps it is a mere Pirsha. Even though initially it was blood, we are not concerned. It depends on what it is now. This is like Isur that dissolved in honey. It is transformed to honey, so we permit it like honey. R. Yonah's proof needs a proof.

i.Question (Magen Avraham 216:3): In Bechoros, we say that milk is a Chidush, since it came from blood. This shows that it depends on the origin!

ii.Defense (Chak Yakov OC 467:16): One might have thought that milk is totally forbidden, for it comes from blood, so it is still like blood, even though its appearance changed. It did not change to Heter. If Isur put in honey turns to honey, it changed to Heter. Why should it be unlike other honey? It has the same taste and appearance.

3.Tosfos (Chulin 33a DH Echad): Here we say that anything permitted to Yisraelim is permitted to Nochrim. Sanhedrin 59a challenged this from Eshes Yafes To'ar (a beautiful woman that one desires during a war), and answers that this is because conquest does not apply to Nochrim. Likewise, Shechitah does not apply to them (so it can permit to Yisrael what is forbidden to Nochrim)!

4.Tosfos (Chulin 64a DH she'Im): Why do we need "Bas ha'Ya'anah" to forbid Tamei eggs? Bahag says that we need it only to permit Tahor eggs! One might have thought that anything from a living animal is Asur, like it says in Bechoros. It seems that we learn from Tikach Lach to permit Tahor eggs. One might have thought that since normally anything from a living animal is Asur, and here the Torah permitted it, it permitted even Tamei eggs. We would say that the verse exempts a Tahor bird on Tamei chicks. "Bas ha'Ya'anah" teaches unlike this. We say like this in Bechoros regarding milk.

5.Tosfos (Pesachim 22b DH v'Ever): It is clear from Avodah Zarah 6b that one may not extend a Nochri's Ever Min ha'Chai to him.

i.Pnei Yehoshua: The Gemara distinguishes between when they are on the same side of the river or opposite sides. If so, we must discuss a Nochri's Ever Min ha'Chai. If the Yisrael gave to him a gift, it would be forbidden in either case.

ii.Teshuvas Chasam Sofer (YD 19): If so, how can we give our eggs to Nochrim? Do not say that we give to our Nochri neighbors, which is like selling (for also they do favors for us). If so, Tosfos had no question! Rather, it is not forbidden due to giving a gift, but it is forbidden due to helping transgressors. Surely one may give whole eggs, for perhaps he wants to put hens on them to hatch chicks. We attribute to any possible permitted use, like the Mishnah in Shevi'is (5:8). One may not give to them broken eggs or whole eggs if they could be Treifos, lest they resell them to Yisre'elim

(c)Poskim

1.Shulchan Aruch (YD 86:10): One may not sell eggs of a Tereifah or a Neveilah to a Nochri, lest he resell them to a Yisrael.

i.Chasam Sofer (ibid.): Tosfos says that eggs should have been forbidden, but a verse permits them. If so, they are forbidden to Nochrim. The Torah permitted them to Yisrael, but not to Nochrim. This is like we say about a quivering animal, that for Yisrael it depends on Shechitah, but not for Nochrim. The Rambam forbids intestines to a Nochri even if a Tahor animal was slaughtered properly. He does not hold that since it is permitted to Yisrael, it is permitted to Nochrim. Even those who disagree, and say that anything permitted to Yisrael is permitted to Nochrim, if the animal was Tereifah or a Tamei species, all forbid to Nochrim. The Rambam (Halachah 11) says that a Nochri is not killed for Ever Min ha'Chai of birds, but the Ra'avad rejected this and said that the text should say 'of Sheratzim.' The Kesef Mishneh defended the text, but admits that there is an Isur.

ii.Chasam Sofer: The Gemara and Poskim, e.g. YD 86:10, clearly permit selling eggs to Nochrim. It should be forbidden due to Lifnei Iver! However, if the Nochri could get them himself, there is no Isur Torah, and not even an Isur mid'Rabanan. This is clear from Avodah Zarah 6a, unlike the connotation of Tosfos Shabbos 3a (DH Bava). Only regarding a Yisrael it is forbidden, for all Yisre'elim are responsible for each other. This is why we may sell to Nochrim.

iii.Chasam Sofer: I did not see anyone aroused to this question. Perhaps when the Torah permitted selling Neveilah to Nochrim, also its egg was included. Do not say that the verse discusses only animals. If so, how did the Gemara expound that also its Chelev and Gid ha'Nasheh were permitted? Perhaps only Neveilos of Chayos were permitted, for their Chelev and Gidim are permitted! This is good according to the Rambam, who does not hold that anything permitted to Yisraelim is permitted to Nochrim. One might have thought that even the eggs permitted to Yisrael are forbidden to Nochrim. The Torah permitted all eggs along with Neveilos. However, according to the Poskim who disagree, what is the source to permit eggs of Tereifah birds to Nochrim? Eggs of Neveilos died with the mother and were permitted with the Neveilah. They are not Ever Min ha'Chai. Even according to the Rambam, what is the source that the Torah permitted the egg with the Neveilah? Perhaps we say so only regarding Chelev and Gid. Since they are forbidden to Yisrael, the Torah permitted to sell them to Nochrim!

iv.Chasam Sofer: The Yalkut cites a Sifri that expound "Kol Neveilah" to permit selling a Tereifah to Nochrim. We do not say that the Torah permitted only giving it to dogs. We can say that the eggs were permitted with it. However, the Mechilta learns the Heter to sell a Tereifah from a Kal va'Chomer. The Kal va'Chomer cannot permit eggs, which were forbidden to Nochrim. I do not see a Heter to give broken eggs to Nochrim.

v.Rebuttal (Chachmas Shlomo Sof Siman 86): Surely, eggs permitted to Yisrael are permitted to Nochrim, like the general rule. Rather, even eggs of Neveilos and Treifos are permitted. The Magen Avraham asked what is the Chidush of milk. It changed to something permitted! Chak Yakov answered that if all milk were forbidden, it would be something that changed to Isur! Since Stam eggs are permitted to Yisrael, and therefore also to Nochrim (for anything permitted to Yisrael...), they are not considered Ever Min ha'Chai. Therefore, they are permitted even when anything permitted... does not apply, for they changed to Heter.

vi.Defense (Afarkasta d'Anya 2 YD 127): The Chasam Sofer asked according to the Rambam, who does not say anything permitted to Yisrael...!

vii.Chasam Sofer: Even if Nochrim may not eat eggs, one may give to them raw broken eggs. Perhaps they will use them for Melachah, e.g. glue. One may not invite them to eat food kneaded or cooked with eggs. Ta'am k'Ikar (if an Isur can be tasted in a mixture, the mixture is forbidden like the Isur) applies to Nochrim. All of this requires investigation.

viii.Minchas Chinuch (452): The Torah permitted eggs, even though they come from a living being (Chulin 64a). (Presumably, he refers to Tosfos on 64a - PF.) According to the opinion that Ever Min ha'Chai applies to Nochrim, according to the Rambam, who does not hold that anything permitted to Yisrael... they were permitted only to Yisrael. If so, eggs are forbidden to Nochrim! Rather, we must say that regarding Nochrim, we do not forbid whatever comes out of Isur.

See Also:

THE HETER FOR MILK AND EGGS (Bechoros 7)

WHEN MATTERS THAT CHANGED BECOME PERMITTED (CHULIN 116)

WHAT IS FORBIDDEN TO NOCHRIM DUE TO EVER MIN HA'CHAI? (Chulin 117)

SECRETIONS OF ISURIM (Chulin 120)

OTHER D.A.F. RESOURCES ON THIS DAF