More Discussions for this daf
1. Avraham Avinu cooked for Nochrim 2. Two Shmuels or One 3. Raba bar Rav Huna
4. Pesach 5. A Raven flew by 6. Army of Nochrim
7. Rav Avia 8. The Chumra of Raban Gamliel 9. Graf Shel Re'i
10. תוד"ה עושה אדם כל צרכו
DAF DISCUSSIONS - BEITZAH 21

Yeshayahu Hakohen Hollander asked:

Dear Rav Kornfeld, In the Insights to Beitza 36 at the end of Rav Hominik's brilliant Hidush you note:

(Rav Homnick explained that the Mar Shmuel cited in the Sugya earlier was the same person as the Shmuel of our Sugya.)

We have the problem of "Mar Shmuel" compared with Shmuel. As far as I have checked: The Mar Shmuel on Beitsah 21 is mentioned as walking together with Rava - this canot be Shmuel the contemporary of Rav! This Mar Shmuel also appears on Berahot 19a and Menahot 34a with Rav Pappa - the generation after Rava, on Beitsa 14b with Rav Papi, who also was a student of Rava!

However: "Mar" is the title often added by the students of Shmuel when mentioning him: Rav Anan in particular is meticulous about the use of the title Mar Shmuel. Rav Nahman, talking to Rav Anan Kidushin 21b; Rav Nahman on Babba Metsiah 16b; on BVabba Metsiah 70a: the Gemara says Amar Rav Anan Amar Shmuel - but when quoting the words of Rav Anan later on he is quoted as saying: Hahu Duda dvnai Mar Ukba dhava bei Mar Shmuel... Again Hulin 38a Rav Anan uses the title Mar Shmuel.

Baba Metziah 8a: Rav Yosef said that Rav Yehuda said (8b) "I heard from Mar Shmuel" - and of course Rav Yehuda was a student of Shmuel after Rav died.

On Eruvin 6b Rav Anan uses the title Mar when talking of Shmuel but others - Rav Matna - do not. but when Rev Matna quotes Shmuel, on Suka 11b Rav Matna says: I came before Mar Shmuel and he ruled ...

The use of the title Mar by a student when talking about his teacher is quite common - Abaye about Rabah - e.g. Baba Kama 7a

- so it seems that Shmuel the contemporary of Rav is called Mar Shmuel often by his students, but it there was a Mar Shmuel who was at time of Rava and his students.

There are a few mentions of Mar Shmuel together with Shmuel: on Ketubot 21a: the Gemara challenges an opinion attributed to Shmuel by an act of the "Beit Din of Mar Shmuel" - from the context it is clear that the gemara considers the act of the Beit Din of "Mar Shmuel" as an act of Shmuel!! It may be that the Beit din was called "of Mar Shmuel" because of the importance of Shmuel's beit din? On another occasion - Moed Katan 18a: Pinhas the brother of Mar Shmuel was in Avelut and Shmuel came to visit - and Rashi explains that Pinhas was the brother of Shmuel!?

I vaguely remember having heard that Mar was a title given to the Exilarch (Rosh HaGolah); if so it was also appropriate to Shmuel after Rav died, when Shmuel was the head of all the Yeshivot in Bavel; after Shmuel died three Roshei Yeshiva succeeded him: Rav Huna, Rav Nahman and Rav Yehuda!

The Kollel replies:

Thank you for your insights.

In his yet un-published Sefer on Maseches Beitzah, Rav Yakov D. Homnick actually addresses the point of the identity of this Shmuel at length. In brief, this is what he writes:

The Gemara says "Adberei Rava l'Mar Shmuel, v'Darash...." What does "Adberei" here mean? Rashi does not explain what it means here, but he does explain it later on 29a, where the Gemara says "Adberei Rav Chisda l'Ravna Ukva, v'Darash...." There, Rashi says that "he led him and walked with him in the throughways of the town." Why didn't Rashi explain what the word means earlier, on 21b, where it first appears?

Rav Homnick explains that the reason Rashi did not explain it here on 21b is because it is not possible that Rava walked with Shmuel, since they lived in different generations. Rather, Adberei here means that Rava either "stated a statement" (from the word "Midaber") based on something that Shmuel had said (as Rav Homnick goes on to explain), or it means that Rava made Shmuel his master (from the word "Dabar,"or leader, as Rashi explains "Adberei" in Bava Kama 80b) in this regard and taught a teaching of his (again, as Rav Homnick goes on to explain).

Rav Homnick agrees that it is possible to say that there are two different Shmuel's, and indeed elsewhere in Shas there might be two different Shmuels, as you pointed out. But since it is not necessary to do so here, and since the question why Rashi waited until later to explain "Adberei" would remain, Rav Homnick sees this as an indication that the Gemara here is referring to the same Shmuel as on 36b.

I will forward your comments to Rav Homnick (who is presently living in the U.S.) and let you know if he has anything to add.

All the best,

Y. Shaw