Hi
Id like to ask a question that for a long time is bothering me. Rava suggests that the "betoch haken umatza lifnei haken" case is that he designated the doves of the bottom shovach and not from the upper shovach and tomorrow he found doves in neither the bottom or the upper shovach but in front on the lower.
But how to understand if so the following case of the mishnah, which says that "veim en sham ela hen harei elu mutarin" ;that the Gemara explains to be a case when there is no possibility that the doves are going away because they Do not fly, and there are not possible shovachim near to where they can go. They actually went!! In reality they did go away!
Bishlama for Abayes explanation, because we must say that those which are now on the daf are the ones which he designated because there is no other possible doves to suspect. But in Ravas case, the same chashash that we had in the previous case still stands here because it does not depend on other shivachim but is it that very shovach!
Dont know if I made my point undestandable...
Thank you,
Joseph
Joseph Kayeri, Sao Paulo Brazil
1) The question here is not "are the doves going away," but rather "are doves coming in from outside?"
The Sugya starts with the suggestion of the Gemara that our Mishnah is a support for the opinion of Rebbi Chanina, who says that if in the entire world a certain item is in the majority, then it is not significant that this item is not in the majority locally. That would seem to be the reason why the Mishnah states that if the birds started off inside the nest, and later the owner found birds outside the nest, they are forbidden; we assume that they have come from the majority of the outside world, and have not been prepared for Yom Tov.
2) Rava deflects the suggestion that the Mishnah is a support for Rebbi Chanina by asserting that there are two nests involved. The reason why the Mishnah states that the birds are forbidden is not because we agree with Rebbi Chanina and are concerned that birds entered from the outside world, but rather because we are concerned that the birds have moved from an upper nest to a lower nest or vice versa, and that the nest the birds came from had not been prepared for Yom Tov use.
3) The last part of the Mishnah is different because in this scenario there is only one nest involved, and all the birds in the nest had been prepared properly for Yom Tov. Therefore, the only problem that could exist would be if birds came in from the outside world. The Gemara says that this could not have happened, because in this scenario no birds capable of flying are present and even those birds which are capable of hopping could not have come here, because no nest from which the birds could have come -- even those within 50 Amos -- is visible to the birds from the nest where the birds were found.
Kol Tuv,
Dovid Bloom