I have been reading material about the view of Rabbenu Tam in Psachim 94a. Some claim that although he seemed to be interpreting Rabbi Yehuda as referring to 72 in Eretz Yisroel, it is actually dark in EY long before 72 minutes. In addition, I have read that he and other rishonim believed the earth was flat. How do these two things relate to each other, and if Rabbenu Tam simply wanted to point out that bein hashmashos in France and other northern locations is much longer than in Eretz Yisroel or Bavel, why did he have to interpret R. Yehuda in Pesachim differently that the Gra, the Geonim, etc.?
David Goldman, USA
I apologize for the delay in replying to your question.
The Gemara in Shabbos (34b) says that from Shkiyah until Tseis ha'Kochavim is either three quarters, or two thirds of a Mil. However, the Gemara in Pesachim (94a) says that there are four Mil from Shkiyah until Tseis ha'Kochavim. Rabbeinu Tam (Tosfos Shabbos 35a DH Trei) resolved this discrepancy by saying that the two Gemaras are discussing two different types of Shkiyah. The Gemara in Pesachim says that it takes the sun one tenth of the day (seventy two minutes) to set completely. Furthermore, the definition of night is from Tseis ha'Kochavim (three medium stars), not from when the sun disappears from view nor from when it gets dark. Rabbeinu Tam explained that the Gemara in Shabbos is discussing Sof Shkiyah, i.e. the end of the setting of the sun, the time at which the sun's light completely disappears from the earth, and from when there is a doubt as to whether it is still day or night, until it is certainly night. The Gemara in Pesachim is discussing the whole process of the sun setting, which starts during the day. Although there are stars visible before Sof Shkiya Rabbeinu Tam disregarded these stars as he said they are too small to be significant. We should note that even the Gra agreed that not all stars are visible before Rabbeinu Tam's Tseis ha'Kochavim. This is the opinion of virtually all the Rishonim who discuss this topic and of the Mechaber and Rema (YD 262:5).
The Gra had a different approach to resolving this discrepancy. He rejected the idea that the Gemara is discussing two different parts of Shkiya and instead asserted that there are two types of Tseis ha'Kochavim. The Gemara in Shabbos is discussing the Halachic Tseis ha'Kochavim, which takes place two thirds or three quarters of a Mil after Shkiya (according to the Gra the time that the sun disappears from view, or Techilas Shkiyah of Rabbeinu Tam) and is the time that three middle sized stars are visible. The Gemara in Pessachim is discussing Tseis Kol ha'Kochavim, which does not have any Halachic significance.
Whereas you are correct in saying that it is dark in Eretz Yisroel before seventy two minutes after Shkiya, this does not prove Rabbeinu Tam wrong, since everyone agrees that night does not depend on darkness, rather on three middle sized stars, which Rabbeinu Tam asserts are only visible seventy two minutes after Shkiya. The Gra also agrees that there are stars that only become visible seventy two minutes after Shkiya. In fact one may ask that this is a difficulty with the Gra's explanation since we do not see stars at twelve or thirteen and a half minutes after Shkiya.
I do not see why the discussion as to the shape of the earth should affect Rabbeinu Tam's explanation.
I hope this helps.
Dov Freedman
For your information I saw a book ( of hundreds of pages) about a year ago from someone who lives in Beit vGan. The entire book consists of charts and tables concerning the appearance of the stars by an observer on a roof in Beit vGan (if I remember correctly) over a period of 5 years. His conclusion is that there are definitely 3 medium stars which are visible according to the Gra.
He took into account the "city light" which effects all stellar observations.
Thank you, R. Dov Freedman. Is it possible to actual interpret Rabbi Yehuda in the gemara for 3/4 mil to apply to everywhere on earth, or is there some way to be sure he only meant in Eretz Yisroel? Second, why is it that there were different "shitas" about whether the earth is flat or round? Shouldn't that be some basic thing that would have been known since Har Sinai?
Finally, why do people today still hold of "72 minutes" when in fact even Rabbenu Tam's shita does not mean 72 minutes davka everywhere, but as you pointed out, could be 50 minutes, or otherwise, especially when there are differences as to when the "three stars" are visible even according to Rabbenu Tam?
Thanks,
David G
1 One can assume that where the Gemara does not state otherwise that Mishnayos and Braysos that the Gemara quotes refer to Eretz Yisrael, and Meimros of Amoraim refer to Eretz Yisrael or Baval depending on who said them and the context in which they were said. Our Sugya therefore must be true for Eretz Yisral and Baval.
2 I would suggest that this was known at Sinai, however many important laws were forgotten over the years, see for example the Gemara in Temurah 16a that in the days after Moshe Rabbeinu's Petirah many Halachos were forgotten.
3 The Biur Halachah (261 DH she'Hu) discusses this point. He brings an opinion that seventy two minutes is exactly that the whole year round. (The Biur Halachah quotes this as the opinion of the Pri Megadim, however, I could not find this in the Pri Megadim. In fact the Pri Megadim says the opposite (Eshel Avraham 261:9). I did find this opinion in the Machatsis ha'Shekel (235:5). The reasoning behind this opinion would seem to be that the sun takes the same amount of time every day to move from being under the horizon to being at a point that its light is no longer visible.
However, the Biur Halachah says that the Minchas Cohen, the Magein Avraham and the Gra disagree and hold that this time is variable. See also Mishnah Berurah (261:23).
Dov Freedman
Thank you. Does this mean therefore that all the chassidim who maintain a chumra of not davvening maariv until 72 minutes are following the view of the Machtsis Hashekel exclusively? I could never get a straight answer as to why they only davven maariv at 72 when that is the time for havdalah.
David G
The Sefer Birur Halachah by Rav Yechiel Avraham Zilber (Bnei Berak 5753) (vol.2 page 95) quotes a letter from the Chafetz Chaim (the letter was previously printed in the Sefer Avnei Shoham (Lodz 5685) (29:10)) where the Chafetz Chaim writes that the Minhag is to wait seventy two minutes after Shki'ah. Also the Aruch ha'Shulchan (293:1) says that this is the correct Minhag.
I do not understand what you mean when you say this is the correct time for Havdalah and not for Ma'ariv. This is the time of Tseis ha'Kochavim according to Rabeinu Tam and the correct time for Ma'ariv for those that wish to Daven Ma'ariv only after nightfall.
Dov Freedman
I am referring to the fact that this tseis hakochavim is the time when a melacha may be done, thus allowing havdalah. And therefore maariv just before this time.
David Goldman
Those who wish to wait for Ma'ariv until Tseis ha'Kochavim will only Daven Ma'ariv at this time.
Dov Freedman