More Discussions for this daf
1. Removing Ochel from Pesoles 2. Tosfos Abbreviation מ"ר 3. Muktzah l'Tzorech Ochel Nefesh
4. Cleaning leather 5. Removing Muktzah to get at the food 6. Throwing out the stone
7. Carrying a purse on Shabbos 8. Shaking rock for basket -- why is it not Borer? 9. Basis l'Davar ha'Asur
DAF DISCUSSIONS - SHABBOS 142

Jeff Ram asked:

The Gemara [and your "Answer to Review Question # 6 (b)] tells us about Raban Shimon ben Gamliel's dictum, saying that, on Yom-Tov, when there are more bad beans than good ones, in order to avoid the melacha of Borer, one is obligated to pick out the good ones from the bad ones, and not vice-versa. Beis Hillel disagrees, saying that it's less of a tircha to pick out the bad ones. It seems that everyone agrees that in a case where you have much more ochel than pesoles, and it's relatively easy to pick out the edible food from the non-edible, you must only pick the ochel from the pesoles. This seems to be an inyan of Tircha rather than borer.

My question is: in a case where there is more ochel than pesoles (like a fish including the bones) *but* where there's much more tircha to remove the ochel (fish meat) from the pesoles (bones), removing the pesoles would mutar according to Beis Hillel. Taking out the entire backbone along with all the small bones attached to it, even though this pesoles is much less volume than the ochel, it is much less tircha to eat the fish that way. What would be the correct way to *state the halacha* according to Beis Hillel? Is it more correct to say that removing the pesoles from the ochel (the bones from the fish in my case) would be "permitted"? "preferable"? or would it be "prohibited" (because of the tircha) to remove the ochel from the pesoles (removing the fish from the bones)?

warm regards,

Jeff Ram,

Jerusalem

The Kollel replies:

The rule of thumb is that whatever there is *more* of, it is more difficult to remove than whatever there is less of. Therefore, Beis Hillel, according to Raban Shimon ben Gamliel, maintains that when there is more Ochel than Pesoles, one should remove the *Pesoles* and not the Ochel, because to remove the Ochel will be more of a Tircha. (You are correct, though, in that the question on Yom Tov is one of Tircha (according to Beis Hillel), since Borer is permitted for Ochel Nefesh. (This is actually subject to a Machlokes Rishonim in Beitzah, which we will deal with when we learn Beitzah, G-d willing).)

It is usually more difficult to remove the Ochel when it is more than the Pesoles, and therefore Beis Hillel certainly permits the Pesoles to be removed in the case that you mention. (Of course, this applies only on Yom Tov, but not on Shabbos).

As far as how to correctly understand this Heter, it seems that Beis Hillel *prohibits* taking the Ochel because of the Tircha, as per your third suggestion.

All the best,

Y. Shaw