More Discussions for this daf
1. Questions from Daf 13-21 2. R Shimon Ben Gamliel "Ma'aseh Rav" 3. Mistake in Question
4. Chashmona'im 5. Yonah's Kikoyon 6. Rav Huna and Rav Chisda
7. Time Chanukah Lights Must Burn 8. Miracle of Oil 9. The Parei ha'Chag of Sukkos and the Chanukah lights
10. Ner Ish u'Beiso 11. Mehadrin and Pirsum Nes 12. Mehadrin
13. The eight day miracle 14. The argument between Beis Shamai and Beis Hillel how to light the Chanukah lights 15. Hillel and Shamai
16. How to light the Chanukah candles: 17. Neros After 30 Minutes 18. Next year...
19. Eight days of Chanukah 20. שיטת אביי 21. טעמי ב"ש וב"ה
DAF DISCUSSIONS - SHABBOS 21

Boruch Kahan asked:

The Gemoro in the beginning of Bameh Madlikin brings us another famous citing of Rabbah Bar Bar Chana to go along with all those in Bova Basra daf 73b etc. This time in our Gemoro it is Yonah's Kikoyon.

My basic question is surely this is impossible since the Pessukim very clearly tell us at the end of Yonah specifically Perek 4 Possuk 10 "Shebin Layloh Hoyoh Ubin Layloh Ovod" which roughly translated that overnight it ie the Kikoyon was destroyed so how could Rabbah Bar Bar Channah have seen it!?

Boruch Kahan, London England

The Kollel replies:

Rashi says Rabah bar bar Chanah was describing the species, not the actual Kikayon that Yonah saw.

The Shabbos Shel Mi suggests that it is a Mashal for man, or for Olam Hazeh, which is as ephemeral as the Kikayon of Yonah - the lakes that it grows by refers to Torah-study, and so on.

Best wishes,

Mordecai Kornfeld

Kollel Iyun Hadaf

Boruch Kahan asks further:

Skoyach

I should have been fuller with my question!

I actually saw the Shabbos Shel Mi and together with the Gra/Maharsha/Maharal/Ben Yehoyodo on the Maases of Rabbah Bar Bar Chana in Bovo Basra daf 73/74 there is a lot of "Reyd" on these Inyonim so you cant take these Gemoros on "face value"

But what I meant to be Meorer taking "Poshut Pshat" in the Gemoro in Bameh Madlikin if in Yonah's time the Kikoyon did not survive 1 day how would Rabbah Bar Bar Channah or in fact anyone except for Yonah know what the Kikoyon was since it did not exist more than a day that Rabbah Bar Bar Channah could go and look for a Kikoyon "like" Yonah's.How would he know what to look for.

That is really the Tamtzis of my question I hope I have made myself clearer now

Sorry and Shkoyach again Boruch Kahan

The Kollel replies:

The "Pshat" approach would dictate that Rabah bar bar Chanah was citing a tradition that he heard from his teachers - which they heard from their teachers etc.

But it is not even necessary to assume that this was a tradition. Rabah bar bar Chanah might have learned the details in his description from the description supplied by the verses:

1. It grows near bodies of water. The verse says that it immediately dried out when the hot sun shone on it. Obviously, it is used to a great deal of water.

2. It is hung by the entrances of stores to provide shade. The verse describes it as something that provides pleasant shelter from the sun.

3. Its pits are used to make oil. This is learned from the Mishnah, since Reish Lakish learns that Shemen Kik refers to Shemen Kikayon.

4. The weary/sick of Eretz Yisrael rest under its branches. This is clear from the story of Yonah as well.

The name Tzeluliva apparently describes a tree that fits the bill.

BTW, I don't think the Gemara means that there are many types of Kikayon, and Yonah's was one of them. I think that the word Kikayon refers to one particular species of plant, which is what grew for Yonah. This seems to be what Rashi means in Yonah 4:6. (See also the Ibn Ezra there, who says, "It makes no difference at all what kind of plant it was.")

Best wishes,

Mordecai Kornfeld

Yitzchak Zirkind adds:

The Kikayon of Yonah grew and wilted in a single night. All other Kikayons last much longer. Thus, Rabah bar bar Chanah could deduct which one was Yonah's!