More Discussions for this daf
1. The Ten "Ma'amaros" 2. The source for saying Hallel with ten people 3. Poeple who read
4. How does one divide 10 Pesukim into 3 fair parts? 5. Is k'Chatzos the same as Ad Chatzos? 6. Are time and space one and the same?
7. Ein Poschin v'Ein Mosifin 8. Rashi DH Rishon 9. k'Neded Mi in Yosef Daas
10. אין פותחין ואין מוסיפין
DAF DISCUSSIONS - MEGILAH 21

Alex Lebovits asked:

Rav Simi learned that we never read less that 10 pesukin in the synagogue and Rava explains how these 10 pesukin may be divided by the 3 readers. He says that whichever one takes 4 pesukim is praiseworthy. The Gem then explains why each of the 3 readers deserves 4 Pesukin.

The explanation of giving prominence to the first is explained by comparing it to the basket marked with 'alef' which was taken first in the Beis Hamikdash. True it shows the prominence of the first. But in fact the Mishna makes special mention of the fact that the amount contained in that basket was not to be more than the others. So in fact we see that the first cannot take more than the others!

Proof of prominence for the second person is from the Menorah in the Beth Hamikdash; but it is according to one view only. Wouldn't it be better to bring a proof from when Moshe went up the mountain to daven by the war of Amalek and "Aharon and Chur supported his hands one on this side and one on that side"?

The explanation for the 3rd person taking 4 pesukin is because of Maalin Bekodesh Velo Moyridin . Do we not see specifically by Kriyas Sefer Torah that we are moyridin because of the order that we call up people to read the Torah, namely Kohen, Levi and finally Yisroel?!

And Rav Papa's praising of the first reader, because he read 4 verses. Is it really proper to take the biggest Kovod for ones self?

Kol Tuv,

Alex Lebovits

P.S. When I was a bochur in Baltimore there was a story going around as follows.

A plate of chickens was placed in the middle of the table for supper and all the boys would take a piece for themselves.

Two pieces were left to be taken from the plate and one happened to be a nice big juicy piece while the other one was a much smaller portion.

Two bochurim were eyeing those pieces and finally one decided to go ahead and took the bigger piece!

The older bochur that was left with the small piece then commented to young one "its not very proper what you just did"!

"and what would you have done?" asked the younger bochur.

"I would have taken the smaller piece" he answered.

"Well then why are you complaining? That's exactly what you got! and he took a big bite out of his juicy chicken.

The Kollel replies:

1. The first Korbanos must be bought from the money in the first money-chest. This shows the importance of the first chest. That is why an Alef was written on it -- because the fact that it was the first chest to have money put into it gave it an importance, and consequently we had an obligation to note that importance by using the money in it to buy the first Korbanos.

It was not necessary for the first Kupah to contain more money than the others, because the fact that the first Korbanos were bought from it was sufficient to show that it was more important than the other two Kupos. In contrast, if the first person called to the Torah would not have read more Pesukim than the others, we would have had no way of knowing that the first is more important than the others.

2. Alex, I thought you were going to ask from the Mishnah in Yoma 37a which tells us that the Kohen Gadol walked in the middle, the deputy on his right, and the Rosh Beis Av on his left. The Gemara also says that if there are three walking on the road, the Rav should walk in the middle, the leading Talmid to his right, and the junior Talmid to his left. If you would have asked from there, I would not have known what to answer! However, I do not understand the question from Moshe Rabeinu. If Moshe would have had two left hands I would have understood the question, but since he had a right hand and a left hand, somebody had to hold up each one.

3. Your question about Ma'alin b'Kodesh is a fascinating one. I will first give a brief answer, but I think it deserves a lot more thought, and thus I will return to it. I am suggesting an answer on the basis of the Bi'ur Halachah at the beginning of Siman 25 in Shulchan Aruch (Orach Chaim) which states that after you put on the Talis, you put on the Tefilin because of Ma'alin b'Kodesh. The Bi'ur Halachah writes that the concept of Ma'alin b'Kodesh is a command that a person go up to a higher level of Kedushah. The Bi'ur Halachah writes that this approach answers the question of the Dagul Merevavah there, who asks from the Mishnah in Zevachim (89a) that whatever is more holy must come first. So if one has two Korbanos to be brought, he offers the holier one first. The Bi'ur Halachah argues that this does not contradict the idea of Ma'alin b'Kodesh, because the latter is a precept for an individual that he always has to improve himself. In contrast, if the community has two Mitzvos available, it must choose the holier Mitzvah first.

According to this, we may understand why we call up the Kohen first. It is because he is a holier individual who must be given a greater honor by calling him first. It is only when an individual has a choice of which order in which to do the Mitzvos that he has to choose the way of gradually becoming holier.

4. I'd like to add some more to the question about why we do not say Ma'alin b'Kodesh with regard to Keri'as ha'Torah and call up a Yisrael first, and then Levi, and then Kohen.

a. I found, bs'd, that the Chidushei Chasam Sofer asks this question in Gitin (59b, DH Mena). The Mishnah there (59a) states that because of the consideration of promoting peace in society, Chazal instituted that the Kohen should read first from the Torah, then the Levi, and last the Yisrael. The Gemara (59b) asks how we know this and proceeds to answer by citing verses. The obvious question is that since the Mishnah is telling us only a Takanah d'Rabanan, how can the Gemara produse sources for this from verses in the Torah?

b. The Chasam Sofer explains that we must understand that there are two important Halachic principles which appear to contradict each other. The first is stated in the Mishnah in Zevachim (89a): "Kol ha'Mekudash me'Chaveiro Kodem Es Chaveiro" -- "whatever is holier than its fellow comes first." This rule tells us that the holiest thing comes first. The other principle is "Ma'alin b'Kodesh," which tells us the opposite -- that the holiest thing comes last. How do we reconcile these two rules?

c. The Chasam Sofer writes that he expounded in a Teshuvah (which I have been unable to find) that the solution is as follows. When two items are standing in front of us, as in Zevachim 89a, we say that we deal first with the one which is more holy and afterwards with the less holy one. Therefore, we sacrifice the holier Korban first. However, when the two items are not in front of us at the moment, we apply the rule of Ma'alin b'Kodesh and start with the less holy item and proceed to ascend in Kedushah.

d. According to this, in the case of Keri'as ha'Torah we really could have applied the rule of Ma'alin b'Kodesh and called up the Yisrael first. The Chasam Sofer cites the Gemara here in Megilah (21b) that the last one who reads the four verses is praiseworthy because of Ma'alin b'Kodesh. We see from our Gemara that indeed it is sometimes possible to apply the rule of Ma'alin b'Kodesh to Keri'as ha'Torah. The Chasam writes that the only reason why we do not apply Ma'alin b'Kodesh to Keri'as ha'Torah is because of the verses that the Gemara cites in Gitin 59b to teach that the Kohen comes before the Levi, and automatically the Yisrael comes last.

e. The Chasam Sofer then cites a practical Halachah which is also mentioned by the Mishneh Berurah (136:5), that the leader of the community is called up last. The Chasam Sofer writes that this is because of the concept of "Acharon Chaviv" -- the last one is the most beloved (see Rashi to Bereishis 33:2, who explains that this is the reason why Yakov placed Leah and Rachel and their children last when meeting Esav), and because of the rule of Ma'alin b'Kodesh.

f. To summarize, according to the Chasam Sofer, if it would not have been for the verses that the Gemara in Gitin cites to show that the Kohen comes before the Levi, we would have said Ma'alin b'Kodesh for Keri'as ha'Torah.

5. I am now going to comment on the question, how is it proper for Rav Papa to praise the person who took the biggest Kavod for himself?

a. Of course the person who read four verses was not only getting Kavod for himself, he was also doing a bigger Mitzvah, especially in the time of the Gemara when the person called up to the Torah actually read the verses himself. As we know, there is a Mitzvah in every word of Torah that one says, so the person who was called up first and read an extra verse of Torah gained a lot more Mitzvos. Even if the person who read first was also thinking about his Kavod and not just about the Mitzvah, we know that the Gemara says (end of Horayos 10b) that a person should always occupy himself with Torah and Mitzvos even she'Lo Lishmah, because if one starts off she'Lo Lishmah he eventually arrives at Lishmah. Eventually, one will attain the right motives for doing the Mitzvos, even though this takes time and one's intentions are not so pure in the beginning.

b. But one might still ask, quite apart from the question of Kavod, how can Rav Papa praise the person who pushed his way in and forcibly saw to it that he would be the first one and grab the most verses?

We can learn an answer to this question from the words of the Sha'arei Teshuvah, printed on the page of the Shulchan Aruch Orach Chaim 482 (in parentheses). He cites the Igeres Shmuel who describes how Boaz redeemed the field of Ruth, and then married her. There was another Go'el who had a prior claim on that field, but Boaz did something which might appear to be rather devious in order to acquire the field for himself. He said to the potential redeemer, "On the day that you will purchase the field from Ruth the Moabite...." Boaz was stressing that she was a Moabite in order to discourage the Go'el from getting involved. Boaz did this because he saw, with Ru'ach ha'Kodesh, that by marrying Ruth his descendants were going to establish the kingdom of David ha'Melech.

The Igeres Shmuel writes an important idea: Even though it is forbidden to cheat, this applies only to monetary matters, but when it comes to Mitzvos, if no one has actually yet acquired the Mitzvah then it is considered as Hefker. Every individual must try to improve his soul and be Zocheh in the Mitzvah. This is why Yakov Avinu made sure he would receive the firstborn rights; he saw that Esav was determined to be evil and did not need the Bechorah, while he needed it to perfect his Nefesh and gain Mitzvos.

c. I think that we can understand this in a business setting as well. A person who was astute and made a good bid is worthy of respect. And this is why our Gemara says that whoever read the fourth verse is praiseworthy, because he gained all those extra Mitzvos to help himself improve his Neshamah.

5. Just a short comment about the story from Baltimore: According to the Igeres Shmuel that we saw above, the story does not really have anything to do with the Gemara in Megilah because the Gemara is discussing gaining Mitzvos, where one should make an effort to do the most possible, while the story about the chicken is about Gashmiyus, where a person does not have a Mitzvah to get the best for himself at the expense of others. (In addtion, possibly the story has a Halachic connection to the Gemara in Kidushin 59a about "Ani ha'Mehapech b'Chararah," where a poor person is trying to get something good and someone takes it away from him.)

However, in my opinion, the older Bachur was right. He was not angry with the younger boy but rather he was trying to teach him a lesson in Derech Eretz. He was saying to him that he should learn to think about other people, not just about himself. Indeed, had the younger boy been more understanding and taken the smaller piece for himself, the older boy would have said immmediately to him, "No, I am not hungry. Please take the bigger portion." If the younger boy would have thought a little more about what his friend was trying to say to him, he would have learned a lesson in good Midos for the rest of his life, but as it was he was left with the geshmak taste of a chicken in his mouth for a couple of hours!

Kol Tuv,

Dovid Bloom

The Kollel adds:

I posed the question, about Ma'alin b'Kodesh in Keri'as ha'Torah, to a Gadol. He replied that it is the honor of the kohen to call him first.

So even though if we would call the Yisrael first and then the Levi and finally the Kohen we would achieve Ma'alin b'Kodesh, nevertheless this way we would lose the Mitzvah of granting the Kohen honor in the eyes of the community.

Dovid Bloom

The Kollel adds:

I saw a beautiful Pshat from the Ba'al ha'Turim about v'Kidashto which may help to explain why v'Kidashto on its own is not sufficient to explain why we do not say Ma'alin ba'Kodesh for Keri'as ha'Torah.

1) The Ba'al ha'Turim is in Parshas Yisro (Shemos 19:23) where Moshe Rabeinu says that he was commanded to make a border around Har Sinai "and sanctify the mountain" -- "v'Kidashto." The Ba'al ha'Turim points out that the word "v'Kidashto" appears twice in the Torah: once here, and the other time in Vayikra 21:8 concerning sanctifying the Kohen. When stated in connection with sanctifying the Kohen it comes at the beginning of the verse, but when stated in connection with sanctifying the mountain it comes at the end of the verse. This is because the Kohen always comes first, so his "v'Kidashto" is stated at the beginning of the verse. In contrast, "v'Kidashto" stated in connection with Har Sinai refers to the sanctification of the Torah which we received on Har Sinai. The "v'Kidashto" connected with Sinai is teaching us about the holiness of the Talmid Chacham who knows the Torah.

2) The Ba'al ha'Turim explains that the Kedushah of the Talmid Chacham is opposite the Kedushah of the Kohen. The Kedushah of the Kohen comes at the beginning while the Kedushah of the Talmid Chacham comes at the end: It is said about the Talmid Chacham (Tehilim 16:3), "for the holy ones in the land." This verse describes the Talmid Chacham after he has died and is buried in the ground. It is only then that his holiness is recognizable, because while he is alive, Hash-m "does not have faith in his holy ones" (Iyov 15:15; see Chagigah 5a). This is why the greatness of the Talmid Chacham is to be called up at the end, as the Gemara in Megilah (32a) states that the greatest in the community does Gelilah -- literally "wraps up" the Sefer Torah.

3) According to the above, it might be possible to explain why the Chasam Sofer does not mention "v'Kidashto" as the reason for why we do not say Ma'alin ba'Kodesh for Keri'as ha'Torah. This is because there are two kinds of v'Kidashto. V'Kidashto does not necessarily mean that one is at the beginning; sometimes it means that one is at the end. Since we learned that v'Kidashto concerning the Torah means that one comes at the end, we might have thought that even the Kohen should come at the end of Keri'as ha'Torah. It is only the explicit verse, cited in Gitin 59b, that tells us that Kohanim come before Leviyim for Keri'as ha'Torah.

Kol Tuv,

Dovid Bloom

The Kollel adds:

I saw a beautiful pshat from the Baal HaTurim about v'Kidashto and this may also help to explain why v'Kidashto on its own is not sufficient to explain why we do not say Maalin beKodesh for Kerias HaTorah

1) The Baal HaTurim is in Parshas Yisro 19:23 where Moshe Rabeinu said that he was commanded to border Mount Sinai "v'kidashto" - and to sanctify the mountain. Baal Haturim points out that the word v'kidashto appears twice in the Torah; one here, and the other time in Vayikra 21:8 concerning sanctifying the Kohen. When stated in connection with sanctifying the Kohen it comes at the beginning of the verse but when stated in connection with sanctifying the mountain it comes at the end of the verse. This is because the Kohen always comes first, so v'kidashto is stated at the beginning of his verse. In contrast v'kidashto stated in connection with Har Sinai refers to the sanctification of the Torah which we received the Torah on Har Sinai. V'kidashto connected with Sinai is teaching us about the holiness of the Talmid Chochom who knows the Torah

2) Baal HaTurim explains that the kedushah of the Talmid Chochom is opposite to the kedushah of the Kohen. The kedushah of the Kohen comes at the beginning whilst the kedusha of the Talmid Chochom comes at the end. It is said about the Talmid Chocohom (Tehilim 16:3) "for the holy ones in the land". This is describing the Talmid Chochom after he has died and is buried in the ground. It is only then that his holiness is recognizable, because while he is alive Iyov (15:15) said about the Talmid Chochom "He does not believe in his holy ones". This is why the greatness of the Talmid Chochom is to be called up at the end, as Gemara Megilah 32a states that the greatest in the community does Gelilah - literally "wraps up" the Sefer Torah

3) According to the above it might be possible to explain why the Chasam Sofer does not mention v'kidashto as the reason why we do not say Maalin beKodesh for Kerias Hatorah. This is because there are 2 kinds of v'kidashto. V'kidashto does not necessarily mean that one is at the beginning; sometimes it means that one is at the end. Since we learnt that v'kidahsto concerning the Torah means that one comes at the end, we might have thought that even the Kohen should come at the end of Kerias Hatorah. It is only the explicit verse, cited in Gitin 59b, that tells us that Kohanim come before Leviim for Kerias Hatorah

Good Shabbos

Dovid Bloom

The Kollel adds:

I noticed that further on in the Chidushel Chasam Sofer Gitin 59b he does actually mention v'kidashtu

We can combine the Chasam Sofer together with a Rashi from yesterday's Parhas Vayishlach and we now have an explanation, bs'd, why we might have thought that v'kidashto does not stop us from calling up Yisrael-Levi-Cohen in that order

1) Before Yaakov met Esav the Torah tells us (33:2) that he put Leah and her children last, and Rochel and Yosef last. Rashi writes that this is because "Achron Achron Choviv" :- the favorite comes last

The Chasam Sofer understands that the idea of Achron Achron Choviv goes together with Maalin beKodesh, as he writes in Chidushei Chasam Sofer Gitin 59b DH Mina, in the name of the Poskim, that nowadays the Parnosim are called up last to the Torah because of Achron Achron Chaviv, in the way of Maalin beKodesh

2) When the Chasam Sofer writes "Parnosim" he is referring to Shulchan Aruch Orach Chaim #136 which states that Talmidei Chachomim who are worthy of being appointed Parnosim over the community deserve a priority to be called up to the Torah. The Rema there writes that the Parsonim are capable of being asked Halachic questions in any field and answering

3) Chasam Sofer points out that the Gemara Gitin 59b, when it looks for the source that the order for Kerias Hatorah is Cohen-Levi-Yisroel, does cite the verse v'kidashto as the last opinion mentioned there. However Chasam Sofer writes that merely to know the word v'kidashto is not sufficient, because where does one see that v'kidasahto means that the Cohen should be first? Possibly v'kidashto merely tells us that there is a mitzvah to declare the Cohen as holy but we could still think that because of "Achron Achron Choviv" the Mitzvah would be to call up the cohen last, not first?! CS answers that this is what Tana deBei Rabbi Yishmael teaches us in Gitin 59b, that we learn from v'kidashto that the Cohen gets first choice when food is being distributed. The latter din fits in well with v'kidashto because Vayikra 21:8 states that the reason we say v'kidashto is because he sacrifices the bread of Hash-m. Therefore it is logical that he should have prioroty in receiving his own bread

4) Since we are discussing receiving the best food this must mean that he receives his portion first. This then is how we know, according to the conclusion of the Gemara, that v'kidashto is not synonymous with Achron Achron Choviv KOL TUV

Dovid Bloom