More Discussions for this daf
1. ha'Tov v'ha'Meitiv 2. Making 2 Berachos on lightning and thunder 3. ha'Tov v'ha'Meitiv
4. Thunder and lightening 5. Birchas Ha'Chama 6. Question on words of the Pirkei d'Rebbi Eliezer
7. Gesher d'Bavel 8. Thunder and lightning 9. Father's passing away
10. the sound of one hand clapping 11. Hatov Veha Meitiv on different wines 12. Beracha on Lightning, Toch Kedei Dibur
13. Birkas ha'Chamah and Tekufas Shmuel 14. ברכת החמה
DAF DISCUSSIONS - BERACHOS 59

Y Shaw asks:

Shalom Rav,

Would you happen to know what the meaning of "sixty ma'alos" and "forty ma'alos" is in Pirkei d'Rebbi Eliezer 7:11?

בג' מחזורות של חמה וד' מחזורות של לבנה פ"ר שנים שהוא שעה אחת מיומו של הקב"ה באין חמה ולבנה שוים בתחילת ליל ד' ובשעת שבתאי בשעה שנבראו בשעה ששלהבת לבנה מגעת לחמה ביום במעלות ששים עובר בתוכו ומכבה את אורו ובשעה ששלהבת החמה מגעת ללבנה בלילה במעלות ארבעים עובר בתוכו ומכבה את אורו.

Any idea?

Thanks!

Yisrael

The Kollel replies:

Well - in broad strokes this is what I would do with it. (And I strongly suspect there are some typists errors in the numbers...)

Ma'alos are probably the same as in II Melachim 20:9, Yeshayah 38:8, by Chizkiyah (see Radak, Malbim there), which may be degrees out of a total of 360.

The Gemara tells us (Berachos 59a) that there is one moment every 28 years that the sun is בתקופתה. It also mentions that there is a time when the moon is בגבורתה. The Gemara makes it clear that this moment corresponds to a point where the sun (and moon - Rambam Berachos 10:18) are back to where they were 'placed' by HKB'H at the moment of Ma'aseh Bereishis (on the fourth day - hence it must always be on a Wed.). In the case of the sun, it takes 7 (corresponding to days of the week) 4-year cycles (following Tekufah d'Shmuel, year=365 1/4 days) to reach that point. In the case of the moon It is not clear how many years are between each בגבורתה. From the Pirkei d'Rebbi Eliezer it seems that it is a 70 year cycle (7 10-year cycles).

Pirkei d'Rebbi Eliezer therefore makes a 'super' correspondence when both the moon and sun reach their points of creation on the same day, and that happens every 280 years (10 sun-cycles=4 moon-cycles). So instead of saying "3" sun-cycles, the correct number should clearly be 10.

Based on context, the שלהבת of Pirkei d'Rebbi Eliezer seems to be the shadow of the sun and moon which causes eclipses. (Compare the rest of the Pirkei d'Rebbi Eliezer to the Gemara in Sukah 28a which discusses eclipses in the same light NPI). The moon's shadow causes solar eclipses only at the Molad. The earth's shadow in the light of the sun causes lunar eclipses only at full moon.

The first Molad of the world took place two hours into the day of the Friday of creation (Tosfos RH 8a). Two hours out of 24 =1/12 = the sun rose 30 degrees. So the solar eclipse that would occur when the sun and moon return to their creation-status would be 30 degrees into the day (not ששים but שלשים). Some two weeks later there could be a lunar eclipse, and Pirkei d'Rebbi Eliezer says it would occur when the moon has risen 40 degrees (2 2/3 hours into the night - the extra 2/3 is because the sun and moon have moved a bit relative to each other).

Well, see what you can make of that.

b'Hatzlachah, Mordecai