More Discussions for this daf
1. Extra benches 2. Sarah was Blessed with Children on Rosh Hashanah 3. Waiting for Shmuel ha'Katan
4. Havinenu when there are additions 5. Havdalah in Shmoneh Esrei 6. Short Tefilos
7. Comments from readers on "Raban Gamliel's last stand" 8. kohen 9. Tefillat HaDerech
10. Different versions of the Shemonah Esreh 11. Havineinu 12. R. Kornfeld//Different Versions of the Shemonah Esreh
13. Yochanan Kohen Gadol
DAF DISCUSSIONS - BERACHOS 29

Harvey Benton asked:

1) R. Kornfeld, I found your article on Berachos 029: Different Versions of the Shemoneh Esreh, very informative. I excerpted/quoted some of it, and posted questions to the Aishdas/Aovdah forum. The last paragraph (before the link) mentions some additional specific questions to you, mostly on the work of R. David Cohen. If you have any insights and/or answers to any of these questions, I would greatly appreciate them. Also, I would like permission to relay and/or post information that you may send me to Aovdah members. If this is not ok, please let me know. Sincerely, Harvey Benton.

Posting to Aishdas/Avodah below:

2) A. VLAMALSHINIM:

Berachos 28b discusses Rabban Gamliel adding VLamalshinim to the Shmoneh Esreh. Rabbi Mordecai Kornfeld, Rosh Kolel of Kollel Iyun Hadaf of Yerushalayim brings down (link below) many additional mekoros including the Yerushalmi version of events (Berachos 4:3 and Ta'anis 2:2).

Discussed in the article is that according to some sources, Es Tzemach was added even after VLamalshinim. Wether or not this is the case, everyone agrees that VLamalshinim was added after the initial Shmoneh Esreh.

My question is: since the initial Shemone Esreh was est. by the AKHagedolah, how can a later generation (R. Gamliel) make changes to it? Wouldn't the concept of greater in number and greater in chochma (GINGIC) come into play? I was told that the GINGIC would only apply to abrogations or deletions, but not to changes or additions to any enactments. Is this really the case? Are there any other changes or additions in Rabbinic history (to earlier enactments) that would bear this out?

3) B. TEHILLIM:

The Article goes on to discuss sources that indicate Tehillim Chapters 9 and 10 were initially combined (Tosfos to Megilla 17b on tradition of Rashi, as brought down by R. David Cohen), as were Chapters 1 and 2 (Berachos 9b). R. David Cohen (as per R. Kornfeld) explains regarding chs. 9 and 10 of Tehillim that: originally they were one chapter and later the Chachamim split them into two chapters.

Again (similar to above), my question is, how could the Chachamim make changes to the layout of parts of Tanach, many years after it was already established exactly what they would contain?

(Under separate cover I will ask R. Kornfeld as to a timeline of these Tehillim changes, how someone as late as Rashi could still have a pre change version, and how would that version disappear between Rashi's day and ours. Anyone interested in any feedback I obtain, pls. email me.) HB

Article: Berachos 029: Different versions of the Shemonah Esreh

http://www.mail-archive.com/daf-discuss@shemayisrael.co.il/msg00682.html

Harvey Benton, Los Angeles

The Kollel replies:

1) Go ahead.

2) The Gemara requires "Greater in number, greater in Chochmah" only when being Mevatel an earlier Takanah. This is not a Bitul since the Chachamim never intended to limit our prayers.

3) Splitting chapters is not a change.

Best wishes,

Mordecai Kornfeld